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What happeend to the 'Tactical' part in Tactical RPG
Topic Started: Mar 24 2015, 05:49 AM (1,538 Views)
Philemon
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A long time ago Tactical RPG were extremely popular, and I'm not talking just about Final Fantasy Tactics. PS (and to a lesser extend PS2) era gave us so many amazing games that promoted tactical thinking and resource management that made for very interesting gameplay, usually supplemented by at least decent, if not amazing story. Sure, some of those games were sometimes hard to understand, and sometimes just plain hard (I'm looking at you Hoshigami). Still, most of those games offered a lot more then simply "attack with everything you have and heal when needed". I admit it, I like my encounters to be puzzle-like. And I like a game that focuses on unit synergy, instead of just "I hit hard", "I hit hard, area edition" and "I don't hit that hard, but I can heal".
However, it seams that the big consoles no longer support that. Instead, we are treated with many shiny colors that are there to mask the lack of actual thinking. Sure, I like my games to be pretty, but not without any substance. I would rather go back to playing Shining Force 2, and skip a large majority of (supposedly) tactical games of the last decade.
Ironically enough, the only place you can find some real tactical games is a small screen of a handheld console. But that does make sense, if you can't make your game shiny enough then you have to make it actually interesting. So, before this turns into one of those "Back when I was a boy.." speeches (I know, it's too late for that) I'm gonna ask you one thing, is it just my imagination, or am I actually right?
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

It got traded for waifu simulator.
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Kula Diamond
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atlus tracts

ShinyGirafarig
Mar 24 2015, 10:17 AM
It got traded for waifu simulator.
don't remind me

;_;
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Jackal
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Come and Take It - Temple Tsundere

This definitely needed to be in a full-fledged topic and not a blog post.
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leaf
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Crimson Leaf Vermillion

> implying anyone reads blog posts

Anyway, I tend to prefer the term strategy rpg, since tactics often end up getting overlooked when overwhelming strategies exist. And overwhelming strategies almost always exist in SRPGs/TRPGs. Namely, "use these powerful units to clear this part of the map without really trying." Battles become more about "who do I want to kill that unit?" rather than "how am I going to kill that unit?"
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Delfeir
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Adachi is not amused.

The genre is typically called Strategy RPG, as Leaf says, which is I suppose a slight step down from Tactical? Anyway, the biggest problem is simply that last part of the genre: RPG. The vast majority of RPGs are, by virtue of the system of leveling up and increasing your stats through various means, easy to overcome and exploit simply through an investment of time as opposed to skill or strategy. Sure, you could defeat this boss if you take the time to get the right set up and execute your strategy flawlessly and with a bit of luck... or you could just grind for an hour and bring in the beatdown. Case in point: when playing Bravely Default, I got stuck on a boss and ended up leveling up a different Job for two characters to execute a pretty solid strategy to get me through it. My friend, on the other hand, had no problem just grinding that boss down through brute force because he was twenty levels higher than me.

Same thing extends to RPG subgenres like this one. As long as the XP or other stat increases flow indefinitely, you can always just overpower an encounter rather than play it strategically soundly. Having trouble in Fire Emblem Awakening? No problem, just grind Risen for a bit. Final Fantasy Tactics? Get a few more job levels from grinding? Disgaea? Ehh... bad example, that game is grind city anyway. The best way to make a Strategy RPG is to limit the experience and stat gains in play. This is why the earlier Fire Emblems have the potential to be much harder - because there's only a set number of stages and XP to gain from that, and if a character dies, you lose all that investment permanently unless you restart and improve your strategy/execution. And even then, on some levels it's strategically sound to just brute force your way through it.

As for consoles and game availability, that's nothing new. Pretty much every console or console generation has had certain genres that thrive or decline on them while the opposite is true elsewhere. The Playstation systems have traditionally been home to more RPGs, handheld systems have traditionally had more SPRGs, newer consoles have largely had action and shooter games, and so on. It's largely based on target audience and what companies are willing to develop for what system. Sucks, but that's how it is.
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leaf
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Crimson Leaf Vermillion

Quote:
 
The genre is typically called Strategy RPG, as Leaf says, which is I suppose a slight step down from Tactical?

Well, a strategy is a broad overlaying plan relating how to accomplish something. A tactic can be thought of as a unit of a strategy, how to execute it at a particular step. Whereas strategy is determined ahead of time, tactics are applied on the spot. In the context of an SRPG, the plan you have going into the game is your strategy (e.g. "send these units to take on this part of the map, while the rest defend this key point"), and each individual action you perform (e.g. "have this unit attack that one, and let this other unit pick up the kill afterward") is a tactic.

Given the dominance of the strategy called "have a bunch of overpowered units," you could say that tactics are far more important than actual strategy in an SRPG, since usually the most difficult decision one faces is "who should get this experience?" You could argue that going into a map ahead of time with the intent of feeding exp into one underleveled unit is a strategy (because it is), but when that unit catches up, or you face a situation where you can't give them all the exp, you have to decide who else should take it.

SRPGs where a considerable amount of between-map customization takes place tend to be heavier on the strategy side of things. SRW is a good example of this. You have tons of resource management in that game, both in a map and outside of it (even though SRW games tend to be quite easy). It makes for a nice clear distinction between strategic resource use between maps, and tactical resource use during a map.

I'd say in an ideal world, an SRPG would give you fairly static units, that each have difficulty accomplishing anything on their own, but need to be utilized together in creative ways to complete maps. Because of the lack of growth, it would be much easier to fine-tune the balance of the game, making it as difficult as it needs to be, without worry of a couple units becoming overpowered just because they got used the most.
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ShmittlesThePoe
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Pirate Wavemaster
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well, in the last gen, I played FE 10 and Valkyria Chronicles on stationary main consoles. I think there'll be some on this gen eventually.
I'd rather have a few gems than a saturated selections of crap anyways.
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
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Advance Wars, particularly maps which involve only pre-placed units (so no bases to build any new ones) come to mind as an example of getting around that restriction. In general, aside from the DS EXP system, nothing from previous maps carries over to the next. Everything is a fresh start.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

Advance Wars is also not an SRPG. It's more a TBS (Turn Based Strategy). There are some RPG elements in certain games though like Days of Ruin/Dark Conflict where you can level up units in a map to make them stronger that can risk being destroyed and losing that unit and they do not carry over to the next map (This element was taken from one of the non Intelligent System developed Game Boy War games). Also Days of Ruin/Dark Conflict's ranking system penalizes you from overproducing too many units to overwhelm the other side (which makes sense in that setting).
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
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Er, right, forgot this was about RPGs in particular.
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Philemon
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Jackal
http://forum.templeofkraden.com/single/?p=8750635&t=7443698
This definitely needed to be in a full-fledged topic and not a blog post.


Are new users allowed to make blog posts?



I don't think that limiting EXP gain or removing it completely would fix anything. In my opinion, the biggest problem is that grinding for a few more levels gives a larger benefit then clever use of existing resources.
Take Dawn of Heroes as an example. The game was by far not perfect, but it managed to do the puzzle encounter thing very well. For those who haven't played it (and I presume that's a large majority, unfortunately) here is a simple example:
The game uses 4 combat roles similar to the D&D 4E (Guardian, Damager, Supporter, Controller) and all guardians have some way of applying a taunt. A taunt blocks the unit from targeting anyone but the Guardian. The first Damager you get (Infernalist) learns a passive ability that applies "immolation" debuff whit a basic attack. This debuff doubles damage that the Infernalist inflicts with her next attack. The Infernalist also has Fireballs, a highly damaging attack that costs MP. The idea is simple, you use a basic attack and then Fireballs for double damage. This conserves your MP. However, if your Infernalist is taunted by another unit after applying Immolation that Immolation will be waster. And since Infernalist has a rather puny basic attack that is basically a wasted turn. Sure, you can grind a few more levels to boost your stat and maybe even get an extra ability, but tactical use of existing resources is much more important. And this gets even more complicated when you get more abilities and more units, giving you a lot more combinations to work with.
And let's not forget party level (instead of individual level) and fair fight rule (each unit can only be targeted twice every round, and you have 5 units on the map).
I'm gonna stop my rambling now and just say I want more games like that.
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Jackal
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Come and Take It - Temple Tsundere

Philemon
Mar 25 2015, 01:47 PM
Jackal
http://forum.templeofkraden.com/single/?p=8750635&t=7443698
This definitely needed to be in a full-fledged topic and not a blog post.


Are new users allowed to make blog posts?
...Yes. You can make a blog whenever you want.
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Philemon
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Dumb question, how? I'm new here, I'm still getting used to the temple.
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Jackal
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Come and Take It - Temple Tsundere

If you go into your profile, you should see an option to name a blog in there. Typing a name should open the blog for you. It's been like five years since I had to think about it myself, so I'm not too sure, but if you fiddle around in there you'll find it.
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Philemon
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Found it, thanks.
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leaf
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Crimson Leaf Vermillion

Quote:
 
I don't think that limiting EXP gain or removing it completely would fix anything. In my opinion, the biggest problem is that grinding for a few more levels gives a larger benefit then clever use of existing resources.

If grinding is the problem, how is removing the ability to grind not a solution? Many games try to limit the effect of grinding or exp tunneling by putting diminishing returns on exp. But usually all this does is make grinding take longer, rather than making it completely ineffective. You could limit the effect of grinding by reducing the impact of gaining levels; if levels only gave a small increase in stats and unique abilities could only be obtained based on advancement in the story, you'd end up with a game where innate and customized abilities are more important than level. Taken to its logical conclusion, we wouldn't have levels at all, and a unit's effectiveness would be strictly limited based on story progression.
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
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I also think Jackal's dumb and this shouldn't be a blog post, he's just bitter about people making topics or something.
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Philemon
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Maybe it's just the part of me that hates limitation, but I could never play a game where EXP is a finite resource. That's why I stopped playing Eternal Poison. FE is a great series, but the only one I can really play is Sacred Stones. I'm fine with having the option to grind, as long as that option is less effective (and I don't mean just time consuming).
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

leaf
Mar 25 2015, 03:30 PM
if levels only gave a small increase in stats and unique abilities could only be obtained based on advancement in the story, you'd end up with a game where innate and customized abilities are more important than level.
Incidentally, this is exactly how the Souls games work. In them, it leads to equipment being far more important to your effectiveness than stats.
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