Temple of Kraden News:
| Greetings, heathen. Perhaps some fortuitous blessing of Kraden's grace hath led you to our humble Temple, or perhaps you are simply curious about this strange and wonderful cult. Should you be willing - and dare to hope - to achieve enlightenment, the door opens before you. Lo! Leave your old life behind! For once you step through, you become something more than just yourself. You become a Kradenette. Are you willing to make the rapturous plunge? Do you have what it takes? One of us! One of us! One of us! Already one of us? Make your presence known: |
| [SSB] Gender General Cafe; for discussing gender stuff | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 23 2015, 09:20 PM (6,328 Views) | |
| Dracobolt | Apr 23 2015, 06:39 PM Post #61 |
|
Incorrigible
![]()
|
That's a good question because, you're right, it's just as often female traits that are disparaged. Like, a female character who acts tough like a man is emulating more desirable traits than "girly" ones. I can't think of anyone to answer your question off the top of my head. Hm...
|
![]() |
|
| ShinyGirafarig | Apr 23 2015, 06:50 PM Post #62 |
![]()
Giraffes are adorable.
![]()
|
Even that show about horses, one with multiple female characters so it covers many different traits, mocked the male dragon who showed feminine traits in one of the worst episodes ever for that and for very uncomfortable messages if you consider different species as an allegory for different races. The episode where a horse dresses up like Darkwing Duck has nothing on that episode. |
![]() |
|
| Nell | Apr 23 2015, 06:51 PM Post #63 |
|
The Pretender
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Remember you linked that video about bishounen values in anime, once, Draco? Gotta remember that feminity is relative, too. An out-of-culture reading is going to even more likely to produce uncomfortable juxtapositions. |
![]() |
|
| ShinyGirafarig | Apr 23 2015, 07:00 PM Post #64 |
![]()
Giraffes are adorable.
![]()
|
I'm cheating and using TVtropes but I was reminded of Wall-E who was a caretaker for that plant and roach in comparison to Eve. Professor Utonium from Powerpuff Girls is a single dad who is the care taker of the girls. Speaking of PPGs, Wander (of Wander over Yonder phase) can be considered this too, looking for nonviolent resolutions to issues (I have not watched many episodes but from what I saw this is his characterization) in comparison to Sylvia. |
![]() |
|
| Saturos | Apr 23 2015, 07:02 PM Post #65 |
![]()
heart-under-blade
![]()
|
Sundancer and Nell articulated quite carefully and eloquently a lot of what I would say, so just agreeing with that. Terri, sounds like that prof was pretty shitty. It's kind of annoying when professors grade for ideologies instead of methods of critiquing and analyzing ideologies. SG, as a white, mostly hetero, cis, male, Christian, I've never felt particularly threatened by SJWs. I just ignore or point out the flaws in stuff when it comes my way, and parts of their arguments ARE worth having, but a lot of the times, I think their idea of feminism is radically different from what mainstream feminism is. Not every SJW I've seen has been "crazy," so I certainly wouldn't want to paint them all with the same brush. After all, that's the issue we have with some SJWs in attacking men/whites/cis/straights/Christians, right? However, I do think the term "SJW" is probably not one that can be reclaimed. >.> I can't watch the Sarkeesian video atm, but I read the blurb on the site: it seems phrased to be about recognizing both masculinity and femininity in women, rather than just one over the other. I'll check that video in mind. I will say that just because there's one point or video you disagree with, you shouldn't outright throw out "Anita Sarkeesian and her kind" without understanding all of what she's saying and the wider context in which she's saying it. As Nell said, her delivery and content does lack a certain bit of nuance, but it's still opened up a discussion worth having. And I'm glad that you, SG, brought that discussion to this topic as well. I don't think there's a checklist for "strong female character" so much as someone who's well-rounded, with their own internal life and psychology, and generally rendered as a real person. Nell mentioned reductionist writing, and I think that's a great point. Incidentally, this is something that affects male characters as well, who can be written as just emotionless hardened killing machines/soldiers. Feminism and the construction of gender, after all, is something very linked between the two genders. Where patriarchy comes in, though, is when female characters are often reduced to passive roles and basically made into narrative tools to "help" other characters, whereas the reduced male character is typically an active force or "hardened badass." Both characters exemplify the kind of traits that patriarchy considers desirable, and both lead to considerable harm in society. |
![]() |
|
| ShinyGirafarig | Apr 23 2015, 07:07 PM Post #66 |
![]()
Giraffes are adorable.
![]()
|
That's because the site is a third party so they have their own views to the video. |
![]() |
|
| Saturos | Apr 23 2015, 07:20 PM Post #67 |
![]()
heart-under-blade
![]()
|
Evidently they still considered it worth sharing and contextualizing. But like I said, I can't watch it right now (at work). What other of Sarkeesian's videos have you seen, SG? |
![]() |
|
| ShinyGirafarig | Apr 23 2015, 07:27 PM Post #68 |
![]()
Giraffes are adorable.
![]()
|
Keeping it to myself. |
![]() |
|
| Sundancer | Apr 23 2015, 07:37 PM Post #69 |
|
Stargazer
![]()
|
First of all @ Terri that sounds like a really bad class experience and it's too bad that you had to be evaluated on those terms =/ I have had much better experiences in gender studies classes, so hopefully that's more of an institutional outlier than anything. And I think what Draco says here speaks to maybe why your instructor was so attached to femininity? You also alluded to this -- that maybe in response to such strong negative condemnation of her femininity she responded in a similarly engulfing way, making femininity a prerequisite for feminism rather than one of many expressions that are compatible with feminism. Femininity being generally disparaged in society regardless of whom is expressing it results in a complicated process of reclamation and/or denunciation, and it's further complicated by constantly shifting definitions of femininity within culture -- or across culture as Nell says. I liked this question and I'd be interested in seeing what others think of it:
I think it's especially complicated by, from what I understand of it, periods in Western feminism that were very much about rejecting the feminine role and feminine traits as a manner of achieving equality. As I said earlier I feel like this is more buying into rather than subverting the system. On the other hand swinging the pendulum back to ... mandatory femininity, or whatever, is problematic for similar reasons. The imposition of gender roles is still very much present and the idea that traditionally "masculine" or "feminine" traits are incompatible within one person no doubt contributes to barriers people face in expressing themselves as they want to. Other notes here include the emphasis on reproduction as a symbol of femininity and how that can be a very exclusionary framework even while having its own value. Also, often, homophobia and transmisogyny complicate the issue further. Also generally speaking, I've agreed with most of what Nell has said so far, though I've little to add there right now. |
![]() |
|
| Saturos | Apr 23 2015, 07:57 PM Post #70 |
![]()
heart-under-blade
![]()
|
I think the ease with which we can think of strong female characters, but struggle to think of men who display feminine traits and aren't disparaged. I can think of plenty who do display emotional vulnerability, but I think other markers of femininity aren't really well-represented. Or if they are, it's represented as a comic or villain thing, like Dist in TotA -- given a lisp and generally constructed flamboyantly. (I can think of like, Bioware games you have the option to wear makeup and eyeshadow as a man, but I'm not sure to what extent that's commented on narratively. I do know that Bioware games tend to be very good with male characters and female both displaying emotion.) I think what this points to might be what Sarkeesian was trying to get at, that some types of feminism elevate solely "masculinity" as a goal, which can be seen as embracing the patriarchal power structure and values. Sundancer briefly mentioned, however, that what's been constructed as feminine can often be subservient in a particular power structure. Ian mentioned Colette, and while I definitely agree that Colette is a strong character, there are "feminine" parts of her character that might be problematic. For example, her willingness to literally sacrifice herself or put others in front of herself. Buuuuuuut I think the text/narrative itself questions this and shows it as a negative thing, so I think that's an example of looking at constructions of femininity and recognizing the good (nurturing, compassionate) while criticizing the bad (the extent to which women are expected to be the healers or mothers at the expense of their own selves, their own bodies, their own lives). Squee, you mentioned verisimilitude, and similarly, I think how the overall framework attends to and comments on those is very important. Historical fiction frequently runs into similar things, but it's important, I think, to give a voice to those who in the past did not have a voice in history. If you're going to represent them beyond a standard account and actually going to put us there, I expect a bit more depth. If women are barred from the battlefield, represent how women feel about that, or draw attention to how it might be ridiculous (ie. have a character mention that they don't really get it, their sister could kick their ass any day). With regards to prostitutes, don't just include them as window-dressing or titillation, which is how a male, outside viewer might see them, but include some offhand comments displaying compassion for how rough of a lifestyle that might be, or give the prostitutes themselves an internal life or dialogue options that go beyond "oh look I'm sexy." What are the reasons they're in prostitution? Do they enjoy it, do they get most of the money from it? Are they forced into it by an abusive master or owner? Do they have a child that they're struggling to raise? Not all those have to be the reasons, but they're a part of the reasons in the world today, and I bet you that those reasons haven't significantly changed over time. All that applies to the hobos, as well, in terms of representing or including them with real verisimilitude. There it's a matter of class instead of gender, but the question is the same: how are these marginalized members of society being used and represented? Is it just for flavouring and window dressing to confirm the prevailing view, or are they treated seriously by the text? If people object on the grounds that compassion for the homeless and prostitutes (or "hobos" and prostitutes themselves having a story) is a modern invention of "social justice" and they don't want "social justice" in their games, you have to ask whose version of history they're serving or want. |
![]() |
|
| Peakay | Apr 23 2015, 08:16 PM Post #71 |
![]()
me IRL
![]()
|
Y'all should watch Spirited Away by Hayao Miyazaki. He does pretty cool stuff with female protagonists. |
![]() |
|
| Saturos | Apr 23 2015, 08:26 PM Post #72 |
![]()
heart-under-blade
![]()
|
Yeah, Spirited Away was fairly decent. SG, I'm curious what you thought of Brave, considering it's very much about mother-daughter dynamics. |
![]() |
|
| Nell | Apr 23 2015, 08:27 PM Post #73 |
|
The Pretender
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
And once you've done that, you can look up the theory that it's all a metaphor for prostitution. Worth reading, though I think I choose to believe in the literal magic of the film instead. |
![]() |
|
| ShinyGirafarig | Apr 23 2015, 08:30 PM Post #74 |
![]()
Giraffes are adorable.
![]()
|
Start from post #55 and read the next few posts there. I don't need Necare to start with me again. http://forum.templeofkraden.com/topic/7404961/3/ |
![]() |
|
| Momentime | Apr 23 2015, 08:48 PM Post #75 |
|
uh oh
![]()
|
If you're still talking about men with feminine qualities, how is caretaking necessarily a feminine quality?
Disagree. IIRC her whole thing about sacrificing herself seemed to be more of a character trait inherent in her as a person or because of her status, not because she was a girl/woman/female. No other female main character displayed this trait, therefore even if it could be attributed to her being a girl, it's an outlier. Besides, if you're looking for ammo, you should have picked her angst about her being flat chested. Also idk why people are saying there's a shortage of dudes who like being feminine when there's a whole trope about it http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealMenWearPink Even IRL in practical terms dudes are doing stuff that are in the west considered 'feminine'. In the US Army soldiers are taught how to sew and mend their own clothing. A lot of food that I eat or take out are cooked and served by dudes. The people in my house who cook or help my mom cook the most? Me and my brother. |
![]() |
|
| ShinyGirafarig | Apr 23 2015, 08:50 PM Post #76 |
![]()
Giraffes are adorable.
![]()
|
Thanks for linking that trope. |
![]() |
|
| The Phantom Squee | Apr 23 2015, 09:02 PM Post #77 |
![]()
Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"
![]()
|
Interestingly, I've always seen this as a pretty solidly masculine trait in society. The idea of the disposable male has been a very pervasive one deriving from early societies' need to protect women, as the sole way of propagating said society, and it's so ingrained that it's still around today even though "protect the women" is no longer an issue of survival. That's why you still see "women and children first" practices in place in the event of shipwrecks and the like, or the romanticizing of the concept of a guy "taking a bullet" for his true love. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Yeah, and this kind of gets into what I was saying about context. Being able to incorporate something like that into the story in a way that contributes to the narrative is great! In some cases, though, it simply doesn't fit. Pacing can become an issue there, because depending on the context, it may or may not make sense for the hero to take time off from saving the world to listen to some nobody's life story. But if it's, say, early in the game, when the stakes aren't quite so high and the player isn't feeling any sense of urgency, sure. Incidentally, I'm a little fuzzy on what the issue is with them being window dressing. Isn't that essentially what the majority of NPCs in a game are anyway? Regardless of gender? Should fictional sex workers get a free pass there just for being women? |
![]() |
|
| Sundancer | Apr 23 2015, 09:15 PM Post #78 |
|
Stargazer
![]()
|
Caretaking labour has historically been associated with women, femininity, the private/domestic sphere, and so on. When we talk about a person being "mothering" or the symbolic connection between women and lifegiving -- mother earth, the assumption that nurses should be women, that mothers are expected to take leave but fathers aren't necessarily. And you can also see it more directly in the attitudes people tend to have towards fathers who perform stereotypically domestic duties: they're elevated or celebrated as being exceptional husbands and fathers, whereas mothers who don't do that work (perhaps a different division of duties in the household) are condemned.
To potentially counter this, Sheena puts a lot of guilt upon herself for not being able to save her village, and is represented as pretty eager to self-sacrifice at various points throughout the story for her friends. To the point where other characters (usually Lloyd or Zelos, from what I recall) step in. Arguably Presea was also very self-sacrificing in the extent to which she'd go to provide for her family. Raine also takes on a mothering role to Genis moreso than merely a sisterly one, and she does a lot to try and protect him (and herself) from the discrimination of others.
My understanding of the conversation thus far isn't that there's necessarily a shortage but rather trying to examine how such characters are treated and represented -- whether it seems like a negative thing to have "feminine" traits or not? Could be misreading that though.
I like this point, it's interesting. Perhaps there's a shift in the culture -- on the other hand, is it also worth examining how such skills are being represented? Like, it's a survival skill to sew and mend your own clothing, but perhaps if you also design your own clothing and sew it -- or use those skills to make a business selling clothing, or to wear things that are not stereotypically masculine such as dresses, that would then become less socially acceptable? The cooking thing is also interesting -- I wonder how much this differs throughout households and whether there's a cultural influence in that as well. Edit: @Squee, I like the point you raised about the disposable male. Could there be a different dynamic there however in how the sacrificed person is then regarded? Say, raising men who perform sacrifices to a position of heroism -- it's a brave and noble, honourable thing to do to put the women and children first, perhaps? Would it be accurate to say that women are generally expected to sacrifice their energy, time, and labour on caring for others on a day-to-day basis, but that in life-threatening situations, men are expected to sacrifice their lives or in some way demonstrate their "strength" and "bravery" so that "fragile" women and children are not in harm's way? |
![]() |
|
| The Phantom Squee | Apr 23 2015, 09:35 PM Post #79 |
![]()
Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"
![]()
|
Hmmm. It's an interesting thought, though I'm not sure I agree with that spin on it. The idea isn't so much that women are fragile, and more that if you lost a woman, you lost a lot more potential for the longevity of your society. I haven't seen male soldiers who have been killed in action being treated as any more "special" or "brave" than female soldiers who have done the same; they're just soldiers, it's what they're expected to do if necessary. I do think this part is correct, and like I said, that derives from early civilizations, where people had to fulfill the roles to which they were most naturally suited in order to survive. It's your conclusion that this is seen as somehow special that I find inaccurate. |
![]() |
|
| Sundancer | Apr 23 2015, 09:48 PM Post #80 |
|
Stargazer
![]()
|
Sorry, I didn't quite understand what you meant here by my conclusion that this is seen as somewhat special -- would you mind clarifying a bit? Thanks. |
![]() |
|
![]() Our users say it best: "Zetaboards is the best forum service I have ever used." Learn More · Sign-up Now |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · General Discussion · Next Topic » |











![]](http://z1.ifrm.com/static/1/pip_r.png)







9:15 AM Jul 11






