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[SSB] Gender General Cafe; for discussing gender stuff
Topic Started: Mar 23 2015, 09:20 PM (6,330 Views)
HyrulianJedi
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gnik drazil
Mar 25 2015, 02:30 PM
ok, we cannot exist without gender unless we reproduce asexually
This statement confuses me.

In regards to character gender, Link and Samus really aren't comparable - there's a (theoretically unlimited) number of Links, who are technically only bound by the Triforce of Courage/Demise's curse. Their remaining similarities are convenient pieces of imagery to represent the series. Samus is a single person, and is always a single person. The only way to make Samus male would be to create a second Samus (outside of doing a weird genderswap plot or something).

Likewise, in relation to superheroes, anyone that carries a mantle, rather than the powers themselves, can be recast (as well as some exceptions, such as Spiderman, though I'm not familiar with the details on that recasting). We see mantles passed to new characters all the time, and there really isn't a reason that they can't be passed to a different gender character. Unless you think the superhero persona is the only part of the character that matters, I'm not sure why you wouldn't consider that "new". There's plenty of material to explore when a mantle like that changes hands, particularly the more different the characters are.

Though I do think it weird that there's a female Thor. A female wielder of Mjolnir is one thing...but Thor isn't a title. It's the character's name. Calling her Thor has always struck me as weird, honestly.

I'd also just rather see a more prominent use of Zelda than having a female Link, since Link doesn't exactly have much personality anyway in most games.
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Kula Diamond
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HyrulianJedi
Mar 25 2015, 03:31 PM
Though I do think it weird that there's a female Thor. A female wielder of Mjolnir is one thing...but Thor isn't a title. It's the character's name. Calling her Thor has always struck me as weird, honestly.
yeah this was bugging me

the character is cool though
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King in the North
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To go a little more into the comic book changes and what's actually going on

The Spider-Man that people actually know something about, he's still male, still Peter Parker and still white. Nothing has changed there.

Marvel and DC likes all the infinite incarnations of their characters so much that they made all of them real with a multiverse. It's the first Spider-Man of the "Ultimate" universe that died and was replaced with a black kid.

Media of course doesn't give a shit and goes "SPIDER-MAN IS DEAD, NEW SPIDER-MAN IS BLACK, HAS POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE TOO FAR?!" and then comes the racist conservatives who have never read a comic book and never will and reacts to that.

Meanwhile good 'ol Peter Parker that we care about from the mainstream universe is still alive and well.

As for Thor, just like Peter, the Thor you know is alive. He heard a secret (yet unknown exactly what to us readers) which for some reason made him unworthy and he isn't able to lift Mjolnir right now. He uses an axe these days. He did continue to use Thor but after meeting the new mysterious female, she proved her worth to him and he gave her his personal blessings to use the name of Thor as her own and the old Thor now goes by the name of Odinson.

The inscription on Mjolnir reads "Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor." Sure it can be seen as you're worthy of just the power but the name is still mine but whatever, interpretations and stuff. Man Thor is happy with it, that makes me happy with it. I mean christ and mohammed look at this beast of a God these days and yes he lost his arm.

Spoiler: click to toggle


And this is not because of pandering assholes who forced their TUMBLRREDDITLOL feminazi agenda upon all the poor innocent fans of Marvel and DC, this is Marvel and DC taking a look at the industry they're both in, what's the market and what will sell and acts accordingly.

And lo and behold, female Thor is selling better than male Thor.

Darn feminists and their commercial success :argh:
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HyrulianJedi
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Oh, I actually forgot about Mjolnir's inscription. That actually makes more sense, now - it transforms Thor from a character into a mantle, whereas before the two were one and the same.
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gnik drazil
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i was never talking about comic books, i don't follow them so i can't really say anything.

link and samus are absolutely comparable, they are both established characters so why change them? "reincarnation exists so that character could be a girl". maybe. if that's what nintendo wants.
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King in the North
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Ah I thought it was in general.

True. Link is a pretty special case though. Never says a single word. No actual character or personality to speak of whatsoever. And yes I do think reincarnation at least has been implied in several games. So with that it would pretty much mean shit if they made Link into a transexual bicurious vegan lactose hermaphrodite furry brony etc whatever. It wouldn't make any change unless Link starts talking and/or the world reacts much more to him...her...it.
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HyrulianJedi
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Well, sure. The question wasn't should they do it, it was whether or not the game would still sell (ie. would people have a huge conniption if they did do it), as well as whether or not a female Link would be possible/plausible.

No one was really saying it should be a thing, or anything.
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Jenn-uh
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Gender signifiers are problematic when they're the only thing that differentiates a character from others. If a character designer only gives a lady red lipstick and a hair bow, they're foregoing the opportunity to give them personality signifiers aside from 'I'm a girl!'

Now, its okay to have red lipstick and a hairbow if you also have nongender specific attributes. Like goggles if you're a scientist or charred hair because you're a pyromaniac who just doesn't care, etc.
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Nell
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gnik drazil
 
Spoiler: click to toggle
Normally I wouldn't have said anything, but I had the advantage of reading the original article before Satty posted it here, so I feel I have an extra onus on me to say: I just said that.

HyrulianJedi
 
This statement confuses me.

As I understand it, the argument is, gender is the framework through which we conceptualise differences in behaviour between people of different sexes; so long as there are people of different sexes, we will have gender, or something like it; so long as we produce sexually, we will have more than one 'sex'.
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Saturos
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gnik drazil
Mar 25 2015, 02:30 PM
oh god i'm dying.

ok, we cannot exist without gender unless we reproduce asexually and there is absolutely no sexual dimorphism between humans but even then we would find ways to differentiate ourselves and the ones we closely interact with on a daily basis with others. we as humans like to put things in categories because it's efficient in understanding things and so we group people based on physical appearance regardless of gender.

gender is not a theory, we know how it works and it exists. don't get me started on race but you should know that it's entirely a social construct and in no way involved with genetics. also, race isn't a theory either.

so called "stereotypical" markers for gender is not a bad thing, it's perfectly normal because that's a big part of how gender works and just because those markers exist doesn't alienate those that don't exactly fit that model. gender is malleable.
Oh, sorry Gnik, when you said gender was "inherent" based on chimps I thought you were saying it was genetic/essentialist. Thanks for the clarification.

Also, I think you're confusing theory and hypothesis. Gravity's a theory, too. >_> We don't completely understand gender and all of its permutations, and there's still active discourse around it. Gender used to be believed to be a product of sex, and now we understand gender as a performance and a social construct.

Stereotypical markers of gender should be used with caution, I think, and not presented as the only option. It might not be straight-up telling people not to do something, but if you're surrounded by media that presents a certain course of behavior for one's sex, that's a big influence. However, there's nothing wrong if an individual chooses to use those markers, I just think it shouldn't be presented as the only option.

Also, KitN, I think Reddit is more the bastion of "red pillers" and less "feminazis," correct?
And even if Marvel/DC did cave to the "dreaded" feminists and adapted their characters, I don't think that'd necessarily be a bad thing. Sometimes media leads society in driving changes, and sometimes society leads media. Of course Marvel/DC as a business do have an obligation to their bottom line, but as creators of art I think they should be open being more than that.


Now that Nell brings it up, I'm curious what people think about the article I linked in the OP. Is that something you've noticed or experienced in day-to-day life?
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HyrulianJedi
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Nell
Mar 25 2015, 05:10 PM
As I understand it, the argument is, gender is the framework through which we conceptualise differences in behaviour between people of different sexes; so long as there are people of different sexes, we will have gender, or something like it; so long as we produce sexually, we will have more than one 'sex'.
Okay, that makes much more sense than how I had interpreted it, thanks.

I've actually seen that article before, Satty, which is why I didn't really comment on it earlier. I can't say it's something I've really noticed, personally, but even after reading it the first time, it hasn't been something I've consciously looked for. It's certainly not something I'm willing to say hasn't happened around me, because it's extremely possible that I didn't notice it, or didn't necessarily attribute it to sexist behavior, at least (I can recall people doing it to me, though - even when without the sexist under/overtones, it's still annoying as piss).

I'm going to try and float it around my mind, though, and see what I notice.
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King in the North
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Saturos
 
Also, KitN, I think Reddit is more the bastion of "red pillers" and less "feminazis," correct?
And even if Marvel/DC did cave to the "dreaded" feminists and adapted their characters, I don't think that'd necessarily be a bad thing. Sometimes media leads society in driving changes, and sometimes society leads media. Of course Marvel/DC as a business do have an obligation to their bottom line, but as creators of art I think they should be open being more than that.


I agree. I was trying to make fun of the people who blame everything on on feminism and in particular everything from tumblr and reddit which is supposed to be bad. I don't know since I'm never on tumblr or reddit.

And I would never use the term "feminazi" seriously. The people who does that are just the worst.
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Admiral Miral
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Femnazis are ruining my video games.
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Ceremonial Dentist Fridge
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Saturos
Mar 25 2015, 07:45 PM

Now that Nell brings it up, I'm curious what people think about the article I linked in the OP. Is that something you've noticed or experienced in day-to-day life?
Yup. I saw this so obviously on a sports talk show once, airing in the school caf. There were three commentators, one of which was a woman in an extremely tight dress. When the men spoke, the camera zoomed into their faces. It never once zoomed in for the woman.

They way guys and girls in my discussion group speak is also interesting. Women tend to begin with "I feel like" or "could it be the case that" or "maybe." The men just launch right into their points: "but we have to remember that," or no preamble at all, opening with "x person did this because." The women in our academic space, although they speak with confidence, use language that implies they're asking for validation, acknowledging that they could be incorrect. The men state their points as fact (though they are perfectly willing and expect to be challenged).

There are plenty of exceptions, of course. Perhaps I'm just extra critical right now because I'm still annoyed that Kelvin cut me off. >_> I was having a conversation with a girl who was under the impression GamerGate was a legitimate and not-crazy thing, and this guy interjected with basically "both sides of the argument are stupid, it's useless to talk about it, conversation closed." Mega irritating. *EDIT: On second thought, I don't think this interaction was gender-based. I've seen conversations go down similarly when only male speakers were involved. It still speaks to my earlier point about the authority men tend to speak with in my academic arena, though.

I wonder if this attitude is limited to/more pronounced in scholarship? I don't remember having this issue in high school.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Quote:
 
Women tend to begin with "I feel like" or "could it be the case that" or "maybe."


I feel I do that sometimes out of anxiety (See what I did there?) rather then my gender. I have been bullied throughout my childhood that if I say something controversial I will do that to try to lessen any bad effects. I also don't talk much in general.
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Ceremonial Dentist Fridge
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ShinyGirafarig
Mar 26 2015, 09:53 AM
Quote:
 
Women tend to begin with "I feel like" or "could it be the case that" or "maybe."


I feel I do that sometimes out of anxiety (See what I did there?) rather then my gender. I have been bullied throughout my childhood that if I say something controversial I will do that to try to lessen any bad effects. I also don't talk much in general.
That's the thing, though--the women I'm thinking of are confident and respected by their male peers. If they have anxieties about speaking, they don't manifest themselves in any other ways. So why do these women use language that implies they're expecting to be received negatively, when that almost never what happens? Is there something to be said for the way female speech assumes a structure of victimization, regardless of the confidence of the speaker or the content of their contribution?

(I personally identify with you there though, Sveta.)
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Jenn-uh
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Generally, women DO have less self-confidence than men, though.

I edited 'I think that' from the beginning of this post after I read through it.
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Crash
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Terri
Mar 26 2015, 09:40 AM
They way guys and girls in my discussion group speak is also interesting. Women tend to begin with "I feel like" or "could it be the case that" or "maybe." The men just launch right into their points: "but we have to remember that," or no preamble at all, opening with "x person did this because." The women in our academic space, although they speak with confidence, use language that implies they're asking for validation, acknowledging that they could be incorrect. The men state their points as fact (though they are perfectly willing and expect to be challenged).
This is definitely something I started consciously noticing in university. I also heard statements open with "For me," a lot.
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Nell
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I was taught somewhere along the way in life that "I feel" etc. was good communication practice, because it added a subjective emphasis to a statement that might otherwise be interpreted as a hard argument or fact. I have noticed when people don't do it (including men, but women, too), but I always wrote it down to them being shit communicators. I am actually not sure where I picked up this info - I have a feeling NOT while studying communications, but rather from some psychological or counselling thing because the purpose seemed to be try to curb hostility in the interaction. But I don't think the material itself was gender-targeted. Though you could probably make an argument that one gender is socialised to take on the burden of limiting hostility in interactions and is therefore more likely to employ such techniques.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

"I" statements rather than "you" statements is a good way for couples to communicate about disagreements in a psychological theory.


I feel hurt vs. You hurt me.
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