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| [SSB] Gender General Cafe; for discussing gender stuff | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 23 2015, 09:20 PM (6,324 Views) | |
| Saturos | Mar 23 2015, 09:20 PM Post #1 |
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That might include feminism, men's rights, representations of gender in works, personal experience, or any of the above. This is a SSB topic, but don't feel like you have to be super formal or "intelligent" or "argumentative" in your posts. However, be respectful. It's okay if you don't even know something. Ignorance is not a crime. Neither is willful ignorance, though I can't say I'd recommend it. >_> Feel free to ask anything, and we'll all talk about it as best we can. In particular, be wary of terminology. I know last time some people were confusing their personal definitions with what the actual definitions are. To begin with, fairly casually, just going to throw out this article I read for consideration. http://www.alternet.org/gender/10-words-every-girl-should-learn Pretty good article, well-sourced, on some of the ways that men and women are socialized differently when it comes to speaking in groups, and a simple strategy for how it might be addressed. |
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| ShinyGirafarig | Mar 23 2015, 10:52 PM Post #2 |
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Giraffes are adorable.
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Boys have cooties. |
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| HyrulianJedi | Mar 24 2015, 12:08 AM Post #3 |
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The socialization differences of the genders is a topic I've been paying more attention to recently, partially because it's interesting looking at my own history and development and picking them out, and partially to help my own writing. I've become very conscious of how I'm presenting these things subconsciously or accidentally like that - possibly too conscious. It's been weird, because my writing has historically been dominated by female main characters since...ever. And I've always thought I'd done a pretty good job at writing them. It makes me wonder, though, and also afraid to look at some older stuff. It's now a question I constantly have to ask myself when reading over things I've written. "Is there some subtle sexism that's slipped in here? If so, does it further characterization? Am I being careful not to let it be commended by the narrative? Is there a character I can use to bring some kind of negative attention to this?" Sometimes these questions haunt me pretty hard about topics/scenes, and I wind up withdrawing into doubt, but that's more of a writing issue than a gender one. I will say I have taken a particular delight in doing my part to tear apart gender norms in everyday life. I have the most amazing hat with a bright red bow on it. The looks I get when wearing it are fantastic, especially when I forget which hat I'm wearing. |
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| ShinyGirafarig | Mar 24 2015, 12:23 AM Post #4 |
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I was raised in such a way by my parents I had no idea that "boys don't hit girls was a thing" until I watched an Ed Edd Eddy episode. I remember I was playing a shooting gallary game when I was young an you had to shoot the robbers (as in men only) and not the women and children. I had not registered why I was not supposed to do such a thing so I shot everyone. Equal opportunity for everyone. I got corporal punishment just like my brother had. I also was made to do well at math or else. None of that girls suck at math BS. I also was a loner since I never learned how to be with other girls/women so I suck with communicating and I do not do that "You know what you did" to my husband, I tell him directly if I am upset at him for something.. I also learned how to play the computer at a young age and played strategy games like Dune. My brother had me as a partner for NES games and I never felt "girls don't play video games" either. I did get Barbies though. And I like plush toys. But I don't do make-up. Or fashion in general. Also my grandfather was the one who did the cooking in his household. |
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| Saturos | Mar 24 2015, 12:38 AM Post #5 |
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Yeah, I think writing is a great way to look at how gender norms are or aren't encoded. In my own writing, it can be paralyzing to worry about presenting things correctly and a little scary, since sometimes it's like being confronted afterwards with your own unstated or unconscious biases. I think that as a writer the best you can do is just try to write on in spite of some of your doubts, and then look at it later. Or better yet, give it to some women to look over. I had once written a story where I thought I was subverting gender norms by flipping male and female roles, but I also had the male character as deaf and mute. And it was shown to me that not only does "deaf and mute" really not exist (thanks Kingbama), but that a lot of the "traditional feminine roles" were just more generally placed onto someone who was disabled, so that the story as a whole ended up pretty ableist. I think it's impossible to escape from our own privileges and viewpoints entirely, but I think part of the process of writing (and reading in general) is that it can help to escape that. Of course, that comes paired with having more awareness of stuff like this in the first place. In terms of "how can we subvert gender norms in everyday life," if I notice that a woman is being consistently interrupted by someone who just keeps going, I generally interrupt them and then turn to the woman in question and say "<so-and-so>, you were saying?" Though again, I think that applies to anyone who's quiet and seems to get constantly interrupted, but I do notice it happen more often to women than to men. Sometimes, I'm the interrupter, but I try to catch myself and say "no no, go ahead," if I just got too excited. That socialization is still there. |
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| King in the North | Mar 24 2015, 05:24 AM Post #6 |
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We need mens rights because men are suppressed by those darn feminists #NotAllMen ![]() No but if I can add anything, being an avid reader of superhero comics, feminism and gender issues is a hot topic. Superheroes have faced backlash for changes before, and of course a lot of these reactions come from people who have never read a comic and never will but HOW DARE YOU CHANGE MY COMIC. One famous example is the story where Ultimate Spiderman (yeah, it isn't even the mainstream universe version of Spidey) died and was replaced by a black character of hispanic origins. I think you can understand the typical reactions to this. Same with Captain America, who is now old and alive, but left the title to Falcon, a black character. A recent example which has to do with gender has to do with Thor. One of the manliest characters around. In a recent story he heard a, yet unknown, secret and became unwhorty to the title of Thor and thus can't wield Mjolnir. However, an unknown female character picked it up aaaannnd... Spoiler: click to toggle The reactions couldn't have been more predictable Spoiler: click to toggle The funny thing is that female thor is actually selling better compared to the previous male thor run. Marvel responds in the very book itself Spoiler: click to toggle Contrary to popular belief, there is a market for comics in the female population. http://www.comicsbeat.com/market-research-says-46-female-comic-fans/ However, with more female readers, there are more different opinions on the portrayal of female characters. Marvel and DC both tries to write accordingly. This can turn out both good and bad. Sometimes they change the more sexual costumes to something more modern Spoiler: click to toggle And sometimes they make weird choices for being companies that wants to focus on better portrayal of female characters Spoiler: click to toggle I think both Marvel and DC are improving and sees a growing interest in characters with different genders, sexualities and ethnicities. But it's still a work in progress and the reactions to a lot of these changes proves to me that there is a need in change of attitude as well. |
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| ShinyGirafarig | Mar 24 2015, 06:08 AM Post #7 |
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Giraffes are adorable.
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Now if we can make a comic book character female, could a female Link sell? After all, so many Link cosplayers are female. |
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| The Abominator | Mar 24 2015, 06:30 AM Post #8 |
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That takes hamfisted to a whole new level |
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| King in the North | Mar 24 2015, 06:34 AM Post #9 |
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Sure. It would probably sell as well as any Zelda game. It would get the usual complains that Link has always been male etc. But Link is a pretty quiet character. It's all up to the design I guess. They told us Link isn't female in the upcoming Zelda for Wii U but the first impression by many fans was that Link was female this time. For some reason they thought the design was more feminine than usual? I think Link can be seen as both male and female. If they want to make sure then the only thing they need to change is to add visible boobs. Otherwise I've never seen Links design as particularly masculine. Link is just a spirit right? I don't see why that spirit couldn't personify in a female form. |
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| Philemon | Mar 24 2015, 06:51 AM Post #10 |
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One thing that always confused me is what does gender identity actually represent. If you remove the stereotypical gender roles what are you left with? I can't think of any aspect of life that is completely male or completely female. Apart from reproduction, but that's a biological thing, and gender identity is a state of mind. |
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| gnik drazil | Mar 24 2015, 01:43 PM Post #11 |
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The sun no longer sets me free
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first i want to say that tumblr feminism isn't feminism and serves no purpose other than to be rantings of up-jumped zealots, like a high school during a presidential election, it is immature, naive, and juvenile. sex is not demeaning to character. as someone with a BS in anthropology it really irritates me that gender, sex, and gender roles, gets tossed around so carelessly. they are 3 separate things and influence each other in different ways depending which group of people you're looking at. sex is decided by your chromosomes, gender is decided by culture and gender roles are also decided by culture influenced by both sex and gender. we typically have 2 genders but what is observed in most of the world is 3 or more, such as: those who are born male but assume the role of women, and those born female but assume the role of men. gender roles are not rigid or set in stone. culture is malleable and always changing. gender roles also seem to be an almost inherent part of us as other apes are observed to separate themselves into smaller social groups, female chimps form grooming groups that have a hierarchy of who gets to groom who while males form hunting packs that hunt seemingly for sport. |
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| Ian889 | Mar 24 2015, 06:25 PM Post #12 |
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Death comes to all of those who oppose me.
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Could it? Yea, probably. I'd rather see Zelda as a hero of a Zelda game as opposed to changing Links gender. Although in a perfect world you get to play as either of them with the ability to switch between link and Zelda at will while creating a whole new series of puzzles that you'd have to have two people to solve. Also there would be local online co-op so you and a friend could tag team a game together. (My ideal new Zelda game.) On a competently different note. Tumbler feminism is laughable. |
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| Sundancer | Mar 24 2015, 09:59 PM Post #13 |
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Stargazer
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Rather relevant to this: I got a chance to attend Laverne Cox's talk in Toronto today. I am reeling. That woman is so inspiring, and she has such amazing presence. I'd certainly recommend looking into her talks and activism if anybody's interested in issues of gender, especially the obstacles faced by the trans community, particularly trans women of colour. |
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| HyrulianJedi | Mar 24 2015, 11:17 PM Post #14 |
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uguu~
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Yeah, I saw her a few months ago when she spoke at our school. She's a pretty great speaker, and really hits hard with the concept of intersectionality.
This is actually something I've wondered about, honestly, particularly as someone who can't really isolate his own gender identity for examination. Various cultures have made it abundantly clear, as gnik pointed out, that gender itself is a societal formation that can have significant variance between cultures, even setting aside gender roles associated with them. The categorization in and of itself can change so much. If gender roles/expectations/biases/stereotypes/etc did not exist, would gender itself exist? To that extent, what is gender? |
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| Saturos | Mar 24 2015, 11:47 PM Post #15 |
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It's a decent thought experiment. Certainly some awareness of a difference in sex is necessary for reproduction, but you also see that simple linguistic differences affect how our brain processes information: for example, a culture that doesn't have the world for blue has a lot more trouble differentiating it: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-is-blue-and-how-do-we-see-color-2015-2 But they can differentiate green much more easily than we can. So does the same thing apply to how we see gender and gender roles? If we didn't have a word for it, or anything associated with that word, would gender exist at all? You can certainly envision an agender or monogender society, for whom genetic organs might be of no more relevance than whether your belly button is an inner or an outie, and that you do this thing with them together. But I think that's certainly not a utopia, and gender by itself isn't necessarily bad: it can add color to the world. But it's important to note what part of gender roles can be harmful, or when gender roles are being presented prescriptively or as the only option worth taking. And Gnik, I hear you on the chimps example, but I wonder how much of that behave is, in turn, societally constructed. Chimps have pretty detailed social structures, so if you took a handful of chimps at birth and raised them without chimp parents, would they still demonstrate the same social behavior difference between male and female? But that some of those behaviors appear to be common between chimps and people either suggests some genetic backing to it. But the psychology refrain for biology is "disposition, not destiny," and I think humans are more intelligent active participants in their world, and the way they interact with their world. I don't think Link's just a spirit, he always seems human enough. And there's more than just boobs or not in what constructs his gender, but he is more "feminine" than some male video game protagonists. It's good that the comic book industry is sloooowly waking up to its representation of females, though there's still some issues. That first "modern" female you linked is... yeah. >_> Thor's pretty cool, but I don't know much about the book itself. |
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| Nell | Mar 25 2015, 12:38 AM Post #16 |
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The Pretender
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I think gender is just another ontological thing; a (cultural and arbitrary) system that shapes how we identify ourselves and understand how we interact and know others. If there was no gender, we'd have one less way of differentiating ourselves from each other. Which is not to say that "male/female/trans" wouldn't be a thing, of course, just that we wouldn't have a way of conceptualising it culturally. Maybe we'd have something else instead. (And I have a feeling that there is a whole lot of discourse somewhere on post-gender and probably post-race theory, I'm just not going to go looking at it right now.) I think asking, "what would happen if there was no gender?" is a bit like asking, "what would happen if we had no colour spectrum?" The particular frequencies of radiation would still exist, we just wouldn't be able to conceive of them as colour without starting to use language, and therefore, starting to frame it in cultural terms. EDIT: I think the diversification of genders in comic books recently works because the superheroes are their own identity, separate to the civilian who dons it (which is interesting from a cultural studies perspective in itself). Spider-man is a title, more than it is a name. And I don't know about a female Link, but I think the next big test of whether a fictional character has transcended into myth and title is going to be, as certain groups of people have been talking about for a while now, whether there will ever be a female (or black, or non-white) 007. |
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| ShinyGirafarig | Mar 25 2015, 11:18 AM Post #17 |
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Giraffes are adorable.
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You know it may be a preschool show but Blues Clues is very progressive in its gender identity. They don't use stereotypical gender identifiers at all such as lipstick or pink on female characters. Blue herself is female and a blue dog. A random character that has so social gender cues like a bow or eyelashes (thanks Minnie Mouse) can be female, I think a pink cat is male. How did a show like this ever get on the air without executives going WHAT A BLUE DOG IS FEMALE AND NO EYELASHES? I wonder how preschoolers raised on only shows like this and other gender neutral things will come out. |
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| Ceremonial Dentist Fridge | Mar 25 2015, 02:23 PM Post #18 |
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Spirit
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For my part, I went my entire childhood believing that Blue was a boy. I was blown away when I learned years later that she was a girl. The possibility had never crossed my mind. (cool topic I'll say more things later) |
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| gnik drazil | Mar 25 2015, 02:30 PM Post #19 |
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The sun no longer sets me free
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oh god i'm dying. ok, we cannot exist without gender unless we reproduce asexually and there is absolutely no sexual dimorphism between humans but even then we would find ways to differentiate ourselves and the ones we closely interact with on a daily basis with others. we as humans like to put things in categories because it's efficient in understanding things and so we group people based on physical appearance regardless of gender. gender is not a theory, we know how it works and it exists. don't get me started on race but you should know that it's entirely a social construct and in no way involved with genetics. also, race isn't a theory either. so called "stereotypical" markers for gender is not a bad thing, it's perfectly normal because that's a big part of how gender works and just because those markers exist doesn't alienate those that don't exactly fit that model. gender is malleable. now to get into characters. all of you are saying "WHY CAN'T THAT BOY BE A GIRL". well those characters are already established, they are their own person. the creator can do whatever they want but they shouldn't have to pander to some assholes. could link be a girl? if that's what nintendo wanted, sure there's nothing wrong with that, but then again that character has been the same for like 20 years and that kind of change wouldn't really make sense if the game is exactly the same as the rest. would the same be for someone like samus? absolutely. there is no real reason to change a character unless there's some development going on but honestly all i see is how creators should stop doing what they want because you said so. how about making new characters instead. |
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| ShinyGirafarig | Mar 25 2015, 02:32 PM Post #20 |
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Giraffes are adorable.
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I find eyelashes, bows and the like lazy when representing anthropomorphic female nonhuman animal characters and like when there are more subtle cues. Men have eyelashes as well, I feel bad for male characters (those in real life who have eyelashes) who have to deal with dust in the air.
I guess with Link, since, with some exceptions, they are all reincarnations, it can make sense storywise to reincarnate to a female (not all Links are left handed for instance) unless that lore says that they can only reincarnate to the same gender, so it can work. Samus is established to be the same character so that is a different story. What is your opinion on adaptations that change traits of characters? For instance Annie was recently remade with a black character instead in a different social environment. Is Annie supposed to be only a redheaded white girl since that is what the original story was? |
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