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| SSB: Women, Men, & Gaming; I will make the topic | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 6 2014, 09:34 AM (14,622 Views) | |
| Jenn-uh | Oct 29 2014, 03:47 PM Post #161 |
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hunny bunchkins sugarcube lettuce chamomile sweetie pumpkin schnitzel fries
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This is all completely off topic, but when you're in a discussion, its better for everyone involved if you separate your ego from your ideas and opinions. Otherwise, it's hard not to take it personally when someone disagrees with your opinion. In some cases this can even lead people to defend their opinion only because they are afraid their reputation will be hurt if they change their mind or 'they turned out to be wrong' about a topic. And it opens you up to new ideas which can enrich your mind and worldview! Which is the purpose of discussions like these, right? |
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| The Phantom Squee | Oct 29 2014, 05:00 PM Post #162 |
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"
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I used to, but I don't affiliate myself with either side any longer. At this point I'm not even attempting to debate in this thread, just sharing information that I happen to have on hand when someone asks for it. |
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| Nell | Oct 29 2014, 06:03 PM Post #163 |
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The Pretender
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Shads, you're not helping. It doesn't exactly encourage people to offer the opinions they've been fearfully withholding if you're just telling them how blind and stupid they are for having that fear. For all this talk about how Satty and I are 'the majority' and 'the consensus' (insofar as we might appear to be holding the same position), have you guys looked around at each other and noticed that, for all of your feelings of 'I'm a minority dissenting opinion with no voice', that there seem to be more of you than the two of us (plus Crash)? I think my position is more or less the same as the one that's been adopted by the mainstream media, which I suppose would make it a majority opinion, but I got the impression that that's not the circle of people we're talking about. (Though really, if I had to describe my position, I would say I'm anti-GamerGate only in the sense that as far as I can tell, GamerGate has only ever been anti-feminist/anti-liberal/anti-diversity and I am pro- most of those things, and the whole thing has been a culmination of ongoing, underlying attitudes in the gaming community and I think it would great if people recognised it, and made some sort of effort to address it.) Squee, dare I ask why your position has changed? Last I checked - which would have been several months ago now - I seem to recall you being something to the effect of 'I don't think GamerGate is worth talking about'. |
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| Gilgamesh | Oct 29 2014, 07:03 PM Post #164 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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Yes I'm sure a movement or whatever as big as gamergate is/was always entirely about anti-feminism Even if they started it, which there isn't any proof of, I'm going to guess that they are/were never the majority (well I don't know about now, maybe level headed people bailed by now) You know, for all the "you should speak up" stuff that keeps getting repeated, what exactly do you people think it'll do? Let's say I cared about gamergate. I should condemn the threats and such, right? Okay, I'll do that by telling my friends (you guys) and then what? How is that visible to anyone? If I voiced dissent against misogynists on another forum, how is it visible to the temple of kraden, or the mass media at large? It's not. Ryu is obviously avoiding getting involved in the feminism stuff period, but let's say he did condemn it elsewhere. Would you have seen it? No. But judging by all the "show us proof->that doesn't count it's not a trusted article source" (this is a gamergate general thing, I'm not gonna look through the topic to see how much that came up here), doing so doesn't matter. Gamergate was journalists vs ordinary people, yet you think journalistic articles are going to provide unbiased opinions? REALLY? Or do you support them despite knowing that anyway? Also you guys were labeled the majority back when it was just you/saturos/crash/et al vs Squee (and Ian for little while) As for the "I'm afraid to speak up" people, that was then, you can talk now. I only posted in this topic again because I'm in class and waiting for Windows 8 to install so let's see how long it takes for me to regret posting in here again |
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| Momentime | Oct 29 2014, 07:13 PM Post #165 |
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uh oh
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When did i call them blind, or stupid, or anything like that? I told him if he has an opinion and wants to express it he should. idk where you got that but i relaly dont appreciate you putting words in my mouth like that |
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| Kiki | Oct 29 2014, 07:16 PM Post #166 |
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Kiki Martius Chantico
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DONT INSTALL WINDOWS 8!!! |
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| Gilgamesh | Oct 29 2014, 07:17 PM Post #167 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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I guess at this point I should point out I'm not so much advocating for gamergate so much as being annoyed that the anti-gamergate side is free to spew whatever bullshit they want and it's acceptable and 100% factual just because they aren't making death threats or anything like that Since Nell compared gaters to Nazis I'll keep that going This is basically the same as saying that Stalin is a perfectly stand up guy just because he defeated Hitler and the Nazis That is, that's my intent as far as posting in this topic goes. As Miral already said for me, my actual overall opinion on this is that I just want it to die. I wish I had a choice, Kiki I wish I had a choice seriously [radio edit] Windows 8 (it's just a virtual machine anyway) |
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| Seoulbowz | Oct 29 2014, 07:18 PM Post #168 |
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Supergeil
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Windows 8 is actually pretty good if you can get over the fact that it's an inelegant combination of a mobile and desktop interface. |
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| Gilgamesh | Oct 29 2014, 07:20 PM Post #169 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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Well I can't Windows 7 is more than good enough and Windows 10 looks better than that Even if I'm buttmad that Windows 10 didn't let me delete system 32 |
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| Nell | Oct 29 2014, 08:13 PM Post #170 |
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The Pretender
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Like I said, if you think you've unearthed a conflict of interest between a journalist and his or her subject and your concern is journalistic ethics, your concern is with the journalist, not his subject. That is, there was not point going after Zoe Quinn under the banner of journalistic ethics, because she's not a journalist. Going after someone because you think they have may have performed sexual favours for favourable reviews it not an issue of journalistic ethics, it's a an issue of trading in sex, and there is a long history of sexism and double standards attached to that topic. But say you do the rational thing, and you confront the journalist - which, if it happened at all,, is not what GamerGate was known for, and not where the problem lies - and then you discover the inconvenient fact that the journalist never wrote or published anything about this subject after the alleged affair occurred, and before the affair occurred wrote only a small mention of the subject's work. That is, if they did have sex, it can't possibly have had any bearing on his capacities as a journalist. Then there's the whole 'what is journalistic ethics?' thing - it's a small industry, supporting each other's Patreon projects is inevitable, everyone knows each other anyway, it's basically an enthusiast press and always has been, developers are always going to have to give free products to the press because most of the press isn't getting paid enough to buy everything they have to review, etc. If a developer is discovered to be contracting with bloggers for positive content, then go ahead and shun the developer and the bloggers if you want, but that's not an issue of 'corruption'. Then there's the 'what is an objective review' thing. How does one write an objective review, when reviews are one person's inevitably subjective opinion on something? The journalistic ethics thing is a fiction. Multiple people, including journalists from the mainstream media, have been trying really hard to work out what GamerGate is really about, have gone around to people self-identifying as supports of GamerGate who explicitly state that they are anti-feminist. The only other theme that's been there from the start is the anti-feminist stuff: the slut-shaming, the delegitimisation, the harassment, etc. |
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| Gilgamesh | Oct 29 2014, 08:21 PM Post #171 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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Just because there wasn't actually a breach in ethics doesn't mean that people will stop caring about it once the question's been raised. Let's say misogynists did start this under the fake guise of gaming journalism (ruling out completely that gamergate started because people got the story wrong innocently), that doesn't mean the amount of legit people that jumped into the cause didn't outweigh the misogynists As for targeting Quinn, some of that seems rooted in the fact that she's a pretty terrible person who does herself no favors by drawing attention to herself and milking her victim status (that Cracked article) Yeah I'm sure I can trust the mainstream media to show a unbiased view of gamers, what with gaming being the cause of all school shootings and everything else and whatnot They definitely probably don't do things like cherry picking which interviews they do and do not show or who they interview in the first place |
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| Nell | Oct 29 2014, 08:25 PM Post #172 |
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The Pretender
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We've all said that the people who care about the 'legitimate' concern about journalistic ethics - of which no one's yet actually proved exists - should jump ship. I am not sure why we should give any credit to people who jumped onto a rotting, sinking vessel because they thought it was sound, and now won't leave. |
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| Gilgamesh | Oct 29 2014, 08:30 PM Post #173 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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Yeah now that anti-gaters have successfully painted gaters in general as misogynist scum that's what they should do, but at the beginning it wasn't always like that. You actually think that nobody who cares about gaming journalism exists though holy shit how can you be this dumb Yeah because movements never change or anything right So can I say I should give feminists no credit just because misandrists could start something jfc that's it I'm actually done with this topic now |
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| Nell | Oct 29 2014, 08:34 PM Post #174 |
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The Pretender
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How has the movement changed if the voices who were there in the beginning, making the problem, are still there making the problem (and new faces with a history of problematic behaviour, like Vox Day continue to join the cause)? There might have been people there at the start who were concerned about journalistic ethics, but like I keep saying, those concerns were shown to be unfounded, and a lot has been written about why those particular criticisms of journalistic discourse don't hold up logically. Boyd, you could easily say that people are overzealously generalising GamerGate supporters as being misogynists, and I would agree with you that that, like every generalisation, fails to address nuances in temperament in a group of people, but I think, like with most things, the first step has to be acknowledging what might have given people that idea, and then give some sort of evidence as to why that reputation should be distinguished in the cases of certain people, and part of the problem with gender issues is that there is a long tradition of hand-waving discrimination as not being discrimination, as being justified, as having some other legitimate cause, which means that for people to accept it as a 'real issue', you have to have something substantial to show them, and the journalistic ethics thing is just full of holes. EDIT: And now that I'm not in class, I can address some other points that have been raised - You COULD distrust all journalists, but then you're in a bit of a bind because you've got a mass of people who know nothing about journalism or the how the journalism industry works against a bunch of journalists who, despite training for years to recognise their biases, are probably still biased, but do actually know stuff. I will say that it would by typical of my understanding, as a person with degree in professional writing, who has studied alongside journalists and edited a lot of their work, that journalists would throw each other under a bus in a heartbeat. It's a competitive industry, and they have no stake in hiding each others' flaws, and I find it difficult to believe that, if one of them did find issues of corruption floating around, that they would just cover it up instead of making a hightail to the printer. That's the sort of thing that they live for. Likewise, I am having trouble seeing what the mainstream media's stake is in representing what a dispute that is gamers vs other gamers. There's no narrative of absolution like the 'video games produce serial killers' thing, which has always been about how, if we can attribute the creation of a horrific thing to one niche factor, then the rest of society can breathe a sigh of relief as it no longer has to feel like it might have contributed to the creation of that thing. Personally, I don't see it, but maybe it's there. And yes, if misandrists start something under the guise of a legitimate cause, and feminists join in, and even after it's revealed that it's all really misandry, the feminists stick around, feel free to write them off. It's a bit of a weird analogy, because misandry and feminism are technically mutually exclusive so 'feminists' sticking around a misandrist movement would be a tautology (ie. they would really just be a misandrist), but your point still sort of valid.
And I'm the one being accused of being dismissive. Well-played, guys. |
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| The Phantom Squee | Oct 29 2014, 11:22 PM Post #175 |
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"
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I didn't think it wasn't worth talking about, I just didn't want to talk about it because more or less everybody involved was being an asshat. |
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| gnik drazil | Oct 30 2014, 12:21 AM Post #176 |
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The sun no longer sets me free
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i have no idea whats going on but i keep hearing about some stupid bullshit about "gamergate", feminists and 4chan. anyone wanna fill me in so i can ignore all this properly? |
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| Saturos | Oct 30 2014, 01:13 AM Post #177 |
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heart-under-blade
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- The way we can effect change isn't to change everything at once like an RPG protagonist, but rather in the sphere we have influence on, namely among our friends and the people we know. If we make suggestions and encourage others to do the same, you can create a ripple effect wherein, maybe, those people go on to do the same. That's how societal attitudes change over time. "Society" is just the aggregate of individual attitudes, past and present, after all. - I've made that comment about wanting more reasonable articles. Part of it is that a major website like The Times, the Guardian, or so on has a professional reputation, editorial standards, and an ethos that usually I can trust. Secondly, they usually supply sources. Thirdly, Youtube videos are particularly bad for showing snapshots or sentences of out context, for ad hominems or pathos-driven language/appeals to emotion, and being constructed by Joe Blow off the street without any prior knowledge of his background or credibility (many of these are problems I have with Sarkeesian as well, but they differ in degree). If, using these queues, I can see that the author is trying to convince me of something or has self-interest in the matter, I'm resistant to the message. Sarkeesian's at least building off the premise of feminism, which she understands in some form. So I can agree with that much at least. However, the initial premise of ethics in gaming journalism isn't something I've really seen demonstrated or shown by the pro-Gamergate articles so far. Many of the anti-Gamergate articles haven't either, but most of the ones I've read tend to be opinion-driven editorials commenting on widely-agreed on facts (that such and such a woman was threatened). There are probably lots of examples outside that, but that's just what I've tended to see. And like Nell said, I don't think all media is somehow colluding on a vast conspiracy of coverage. If journalists could take each other out, they would. The Toronto Star is currently discrediting one of the most famous media personalities in Canada here and it's huge news.
Not at all. I'm not sure where you're getting that from; I straight up said that some articles, like the gamasutra death of gamers one, are way off the mark in eliding the presence of women throughout gaming history, further referencing the misogynistic narrative of "gamers as basement-dwelling boys." Secondly, any case of overgeneralization from a subset of a group to the majority is usually one of the easiest fallacies to see and object to. Unless you're referring to acceptable by someone other than us, in which case who do you mean? Seconding Nell's post. And yeah Boyd, calling her dumb doesn't exactly help the "You're so dismissive" thing. >_> For the second time, refrain from using ad hominems please. This is a SSB thread. I think Nell's point was not that some people aren't interested in ethical journalism, but that a lot of times they don't understand what ethical journalism looks like, and -- my impression seems to be that ethical journalism is constrained to a very small segment of the gaming journalism, frequently that that overlaps with liberal, social justice-based editorials and reporting, as opposed to triple-AAA reporting and cozy industry relationships. Again, for the other stuff, please provide information and context. I don't have a lot of time to spend on this researching the latest events, so I appreciate you sharing your expertise. I'm considering using Twitter just so I can follow the hashtag, but I really don't think 140 characters is a good venue for thoughtful analysis. What about like, a blogpost from a #Gamegater saying like, "Yeah sure Sarkeesian et al. are a problem (or not), but can we talk about all this other corruption or bribery in games journalism?" I mean, I disagree a bit with Nell. I think that if they object to gaming as an enthusiastic press with close-knit bonds between industry and the marketing, even if you disagree, at least they're expressing a preference for a different kind of journalism. But I think games journalism definitely needs more negative reviews, more calling things out as shit if the author thinks so, more challenges to the industry themselves. Like, looking at sports journalism as another closeknit industry, where many journalists or anchors are former participants themselves and it's frequently hype, you also see some fact-driven analysis (easier because of statistics), but also predictions that such and such a team is in trouble, or "wow they really [radio edit]ed up there." You also see some more "literary" reporting about so-and-so's bio or life growing up to the point there, how they started, and what they want to achieve. EDIT: Hilariously, Gnik, I'd say Wikipedia might be one of the best and most neutral aggregates of the whole story, and certainly one of the better ones I've read so far. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy I really respect Wikipedia's ethics and its firm hand, and right now they're watching this page extra carefully. Browse through the sources if you read anything that seems off and see if they're valid or not. EDIT 2: Even better, Nell just linked me to a recently published ABC article which I think does a great job of summarizing and critiquing from a neutral perspective. http://www.abc.net.au/technology/articles/2014/10/28/4116140.htm |
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| The Phantom Squee | Oct 30 2014, 02:15 AM Post #178 |
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"
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The Wikipedia article was a good, relatively unbiased source last time I read it, so I second starting there. |
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| Saturos | Oct 30 2014, 02:19 AM Post #179 |
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heart-under-blade
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Thoughts on the ABC article, Squee? |
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| The Phantom Squee | Oct 30 2014, 02:20 AM Post #180 |
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"
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I'll read it when I'm not occupied playing a shitty addictive flash game when I should be going to bed. |
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