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| SSB: Women, Men, & Gaming; I will make the topic | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 6 2014, 09:34 AM (14,624 Views) | |
| Gilgamesh | Oct 27 2014, 10:27 PM Post #121 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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It wasn't about Gamergate, today is the first time I've ever gotten into an argument about Gamergate. I just remember it was something to do with feminism. I'm pretty sure it was over a year ago. |
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| Nell | Oct 27 2014, 10:30 PM Post #122 |
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The Pretender
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So, our circlejerking is off-putting to a hypothetical dissenting opinion? |
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| Gilgamesh | Oct 27 2014, 10:34 PM Post #123 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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Yes, because I'm regretting posting in the first place now because now I've wasted at least 2 hours on this topic. Also because if I thought people were sensitive last time I made them upset, wouldn't I think the same would happen in the future? Everyone here agrees that the misogynists are shitheads, and when you cut through all the bullshit about gamergate that's the most important thing to agree about, so why bother accidentally offending somebody when at the end of the day we agree? |
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| Nell | Oct 27 2014, 10:40 PM Post #124 |
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The Pretender
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I feel like you're sending mixed messages. You agree that GamerGate is about misogyny, and you agree that misogyny is bad, but you're afraid of coming into this thread because you feel like you'll be written off as a misogynist? I still don't know what incident you're referring to that's scarred you, but that seems like a giant leap of miscommunication to get from point A to point B there. And speaking of miscommunication - trying to not upset someone is probably a good start in the 'I don't want to upset them this time' category. I know you (and you're not the only one) probably find the less effort option of not joining in at all more appealing, but there are other avenues available to you. EDIT: And the less effort option actually just perpetuates the circlejerking, so you know. |
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| Gilgamesh | Oct 27 2014, 10:47 PM Post #125 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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I'm really bad at long arguments so I didn't have enough confidence in my ability to articulate my arguments well enough so that they wouldn't look misogynistic. Apparently they were good enough, or at least my subsequent posts after the first one were. Also I'm not so much scarred as just not wanting to put forth the effort, yeah. I'm very abrasive when I argue about something that annoys me though, so in my case, not arguing at all is sometimes the same thing as not being offensive, so eh. Like I know Saturos won't care if I call him names and he'll know I don't mean it, but in an open public discussion? Yeah, it might just be better for me not to bother. I'm just an argumentative and easily frustrated person. |
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| Momentime | Oct 27 2014, 10:51 PM Post #126 |
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uh oh
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dude who gives a shit about being abrasive when im here besides ur both off topic |
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| Nell | Oct 27 2014, 10:52 PM Post #127 |
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The Pretender
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1) You wouldn't be the only one, and I apologise if it feels like I/we are picking on you; 2) that's a terrible combination, and keep working on it, dude. I have faith in you. |
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| Admiral Miral | Oct 27 2014, 10:54 PM Post #128 |
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The Light of Hope
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I'm pretty sure that Boyd and I share the same opinion in that both sides of the argument (GGers and anti-GGers) are both [radio edit]ing annoying and we're tired of seeing their circlejerk fluids getting mixed up and creating hatebabies. |
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| Momentime | Oct 27 2014, 10:57 PM Post #129 |
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uh oh
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that is my opinion too, and by now id be willing to bet that most bystanders are getting really annoyed. i will say that the gaming journalistic ethics is [radio edit]ing stupid tho, its [radio edit]ing gaming journalism aka the shithole of journalism. |
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| Gilgamesh | Oct 27 2014, 11:02 PM Post #130 |
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solbowz Aurarius
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Yeah what Miral said, despite deciding to post in this topic I'm not invested in gg at all, as I said before. And yeah Shadow has a point too, actual journalism is also pretty shitty sometimes so to see that so much energy has been put into video game journalism is kind of yeah |
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| Nell | Oct 27 2014, 11:04 PM Post #131 |
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The Pretender
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That is one the myriad of problems with the 'we're about journalistic ethics' angle, yes. |
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| DJ Octavio | Oct 28 2014, 01:10 AM Post #132 |
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Check out my spicy wasabi beats
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I haven't wanted to post in this topic either, for fear of getting called out as a misogynist hater, but when I first saw all of this blow up, I will honestly say that everything involved with it was bullshit. However, I did read the article on Arstechnica, which was one of the many articles released on 8/28, that touted that "Gamers" were dead and read a lot of hate towards gamers as being misogynist, basement-dwelling, socially inept nerds, and I was mad about it. Are the death threats okay? [radio edit] no. Are the threats at the university okay? [radio edit] no. Is the doxxing OF BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT okay? Hell [radio edit]ing no. Does this mean #GG and everyone who uses that tag to express themselves are misogynists? [radio edit] NO. Both sides are being stupid. Both sides are being hypocritical. Both sides need to shut the [radio edit] up. Me? I'm a gamer, have been all my life. I have 3 sisters (soon to be 7 sisters) and have always treated women with respect. Seeing the internet outrage at the misogynistic gamers for the past month has irritated the hell out of me, but I couldn't even bring it up here because if I did, the label would just get sent back to me. [radio edit] it. I don't care anymore. I'm saying my mind. |
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| Saturos | Oct 28 2014, 01:40 AM Post #133 |
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heart-under-blade
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Ryu, I just want to say that you might not be misogynistic, but that that doesn't discount that some of the people playing games are misogynistic (not even going to qualify that: there are misogynists everywhere, and I think we can agree we're seeing some of them go to work in a very public way in the games discourse right now. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having this discussion). Just because #notallgamers or #notallgamegathers isn't the point -- you can have #notallgamers but also #somegamersaremisogynist, or #thesearemisogynists. http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2014/08/the-death-of-the-gamers-and-the-women-who-killed-them/ What about this made you mad? Serious question. I can see a few points that might be annoying, but just wanted to clarify.
I think I know what you mean, but the way you say it here makes it sound like you're irritated that people are made at misogynistics? From what I understand, you're mad because you see that all gamers are being called misogynist, and you know that doesn't apply to you? Is that correctly surmised? EDIT: Also, I don't think anyone on Temple has been called a misogynist that I can recall, so I don't know where that's coming from? Unless there's an incident I've forgotten. |
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| Nell | Oct 28 2014, 03:00 AM Post #134 |
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The Pretender
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I feel like it was a long process for you in getting to this point, so I should say thanks for sharing, Ryu. I'm not going to touch the 'not all gamers' thing, because I think that's been talked about a lot elsewhere by people more articulate than I, and if you've not yet encountered it, then I doubt I'm going to be the one who succeeds in shining the light for you on some of the holes in that particular line of rhetoric, but I would like to raise two things. 1) This could be an unpopular metaphor, but I figure you all have the acumen to see the intention behind it and not try to blow it up into something else, but - GamerGate is like the Nazi movement. Not all GamerGaters are misogynstic (at least, not in the way that's being bandied about). Probably not all Nazis were antisemitic. But in identifying with the label, you are associating yourself with what the movement has become known for. For the most part, you can't control the public image of the group. Sometimes it just gets out of control. The only thing you can control is whether you choose to associate or identify with the group or not, and I think it's pretty unrealistic and immature to say, "I want to be part of this, but I want it to mean what I think it means, not what everyone else thinks it means". What you can probably say is, "I want to be part of this, but I don't want to be associated with those strange people over there, can we do something that separates them from us?" If the weirdos are ruining your image, telling them to stop doing whatever it is they're doing that's bad is kind of going to be more productive than telling everyone else in the world to stop judging you by them, by which I mean, it actually goes to the source of the problem. This applies also to whatever negative image you feel is being associated with gamers as a whole. 1.1) At this point, I feel like I also need to make sure we're all on the same page, and that the article that Crash and Boyd and I, and Chris Kluwe for that matter, were referring to ostensibly touting 'the death of gamers' or 'games are over' is not the article Ryu's referring to, but the one that was published on GamaSutra: http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/224400/Gamers_dont_have_to_be_your_audience_Gamers_are_over.php 2) So, a bunch of you have come along and said "We've been afraid of posting and talking about and sharing our opinions about this topic because we think we'll just be written off as misogynists". While I can imagine that as something worth being afraid of, and reticence-inspiring - and certainly none of anything I've written on this subject has been without my own personal dose of "they'll just think I'm an SJW" - but I am genuinely concerned as to where it's coming from. Have the previous posts in this thread lead you to believe that that's what the outcome would be? Is it past experience, either here on Temple or elsewhere? Is it something else of which I just completely can't conceive? I put a reasonable amount of time and effort into these discussions and if I am coming off this way, that is not my intention at all, and I would value having it pointed out to me - and I think probably speak for anyone else in my position. Then there's the corollary to "I'm afraid of posting because they'll just think I'm a misogynist", which is "now I can't call behaviour out as being misogynistic, because they may not actually see the point I'm trying to make and they'll think I'm just labeling them", which is a circle that leads nowhere. I think unless you have reason to believe otherwise, these kinds of discussions have to presume a base level of critical faculty on both sides. Shelving the reflex to be defensive also helps, I think, especially since the whole thing is about behaviours and attitudes that are absorbed and perpetuated subconsciously, and the process of being made aware of them can be a difficult one. "They're calling me an SJW - what am I doing that might have given them that impression, and what can I change about it?"; "Wow, that dude just called me a racist - why would he do that? What is it about what I just said that could be interpreted as me hating ethnic minorities?", etc. Writing this has a process of some trepidation, but at least, after I click 'post', someone comes along and says 'hurrrrrr you're being an SJW', then at the very least you will know that I will be asking myself what I am doing wrong to come across that way. |
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| DJ Octavio | Oct 28 2014, 03:06 AM Post #135 |
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Check out my spicy wasabi beats
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Yes, that is the one that started it, plus reading the comments in that, plus the many articles that followed. It all painted a "If you aren't with us, you're against us" picture on all gamers, and that is something I absolutely don't want to have pushed on me. Also reading over this topic, the general tone so far has been "gamergaters are evil" without ever bothering to listed to another viewpoint. That's why I wasn't wanting to bring up anything at all for the past month, and have just been passively watching it. Reading the comments of some of these threads have brought out the absolute worst in both sides, with attacks on all sides. I will also say I have not seen any of Anita's videos, nor do I intend to. I also don't give a single care about Quinn. What I do care about is seeing people I follow get attacked for their views, regardless of what they are. I've seen Jontron, who was originally interviewed with TotalBiscuit, when this whole thing started, get labeled as a gamergater and get doxxed. I've seen Jirard avoiding the topic like the plague to avoid getting branded either for or against. The witch hunt on both sides needs to stop. |
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| Saturos | Oct 28 2014, 04:13 AM Post #136 |
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heart-under-blade
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Ryu, where exactly are these posts throughout the entire thread that "gamergaters are evil"? Between that and Boyd's
comment, I actually reread this entire thread looking for anything criticizing #gamergate as a whole and not just the part of it making threats, much less "all gaters are misogynists" or "gamergaters are evil." Crash made a post about how Gamergate is really about gender, not ethics in games journalism. Jenna made an analogy to the KKK that she later clarified and then apologized for being brash about it. I posted Quinn's Cracked article in response to a biased editorial from the GG side, and posted a Forbes article with it as an unbiased source. Nell posted an inflammatory article and a pacifistic one to contrast how they were reacted to by people on the #gamergate side; I remarked that that first article was incredible, in the literal sense, and Kiki commented that she loved the language. Because it is a very memorable language, and likewise, the article is about being a real gamer, and making it clear that the virulent components of "#gamergate" shouldn't represent us. That's pretty much it, as far as I can see, and most of that came in the last five days or so. If I'm missing something in my own posts and in rereading these, please, point it out. Where is the circlejerk Boyd mentioned, and where is the "all #gamergaters are evil" line? Role mentioned it, but in the context of something she hated about the "SJW" side and what really annoyed her about the anti-GGers. Huh, I actually hadn't read that original article. Don't worry Boyd, just goes to show that I was confused too! There's definitely some substantial problems with that, mostly by blanketly typecasting a demographic and an industry like that the article elides the already-underrepresented female gamers and more equal games that were being produced at the time. http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2014/09/01/the-gamer-is-dead-long-live-the-gamer/ http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s70jhl Here are a couple of great articles on the subject. |
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| Crash | Oct 28 2014, 10:16 AM Post #137 |
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!
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I know we've gotten way off-track now but I think this is another good, different take on the whole gamer identity discussion: http://pattheflip.tumblr.com/post/96390223113/why-im-not-a-gamer |
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| DJ Octavio | Oct 28 2014, 04:34 PM Post #138 |
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Check out my spicy wasabi beats
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No offense Crash, but that article is exactly what I have issues with regarding this entire thing. It has someone else telling me why I am wrong for associating with the term "Gamer" because it is a label that means I am an asshole online and hate women. Here is why I am a gamer: My earliest memories was me playing Mario Bros on my NES with my dad. I have been playing games my entire life, and have spent a considerable amount of time in my life learning more about gaming, it's history, what developers are doing, and considering joining them to be a game designer. And then I see other people telling me that I should be ashamed of that. That I should be ashamed that I currently have every handheld and every console that isn't xbox, and that my steam collection is worth a small fortune. I should be ashamed because I don't go out partying and go to a bar, and instead would rather spend my weekends at home, on teamspeak and on my games, and hang out with my friends. That is what bothers me about this entire thing. I know it's been said to death, but to hell with it. NOT ALL GAMERS are the rancid, hateful, horrible people you see in CoD games. So stop treating all of us like that. |
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| Saturos | Oct 28 2014, 05:00 PM Post #139 |
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heart-under-blade
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But #notallCoDplayers are rancid, hateful, horrible people, either. :awsm:
I disagree with the author's view of the gamer, but at the same time, I understand why they have it. They pointed out that the above description, which you seconded, is shared by all the so-called "fake gamer girls." Secondly, the ones doing the worst harm to the "gamer" identity (that all these death of the gamer articles are responding to) are the ones, whether in the #gamergate movement or outside of it (since they've always been around), who threaten people with rape, murder, or even just calling them "not real gamers." When they try to control the word like that by keeping out women or feminist criticism, it makes it seem even more like the old stereotypes. And Nell's inflammatory article example she posted was exactly along your lines of concern: that someone thought of themselves as a gamer was made that all the so-called gamers were attacking women and making these threats. Nell brought this up herself in her last post, and I'd be interested in seeing you respond to that. I consider myself a gamer, or someone who plays video games if you prefer that construction. When some article says that "gamers are dead," well ok, I'm proof that that's not true. That's one thing. But far more worrisome to me are the threats, the silencing of the discourse, the people who say that women or a woman's perspective has no place in games. That has real-world consequences. EDIT: And Ryu, again, can you point out where we made you afraid to post, or where we called #gamergaters evil? It's hard to improve our discourse if we don't hear specific criticisms. |
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| DJ Octavio | Oct 28 2014, 05:59 PM Post #140 |
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What mostly put me off was the instant dismission of any point and turning it back to the threats against these women, as if the concerns brought up were not important. Another part of it has been how I've been watching comment threads for any topic that eventually turns to gamergate/quinnspiracy/journalism ethics/etc turns into a hostile cesspool on practically every site I've been looking at, angry at both sides. Even sites where there is normally civil discourse turned into a flame war. http://popehat.com did two articles over the weekend, and the comments are horrible on both sides of the fence. For those reasons, I had fair reason to believe that bringing up anything here, where normally we are civil, could lead down a path I didn't want to take. It was not anything in particular that any of you said (Except for Jenna's KKK comparison, which I'm glad was taken back) For me, I don't particularly care for the feminist push on this. I've been offput before by radical feminists in my family (And I know that's not what is happening here) but I just don't want to fight that fight anymore. I'm just seeing vitrol and hate going both ways at this point, and I want all of it to stop, regardless of the source. If you're pushing for a feminist view where you want equality, true equality, and not just "women should be superior to men" then I'm for that. But I'm not for the witch hunts that have been happening for that cause. |
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