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SSB: Women, Men, & Gaming; I will make the topic
Topic Started: Sep 6 2014, 09:34 AM (14,620 Views)
gnik drazil
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The sun no longer sets me free
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yikes.

ok, you kids have your fun. bye.
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DJ Octavio
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Check out my spicy wasabi beats

[youtube]http://youtu.be/MpmIrWqEUUU[/youtube]

Total Biscuit did an interview with Steven Totilo, EIC of Kotaku, and has a calm discussion on the topic of Gamergate. I think the points brought up in this are good points, and commend him for having a calm, rational debate without resorting to Ad Hominum attacks. I'd much rather see these types of discussions rather than the accusatory way that most of these #GG discussions go. One of the biggest things that was brought up, one of the issues that I would really like answered, is what happened to Allistair Pinsof and how he was blacklisted using the GameJournolist group that the #GGers have been accusing the game journalists of colluding with, and want the people involved with that to explain why that is okay.

Additionally, I was watching some of the old podcasts that TB does, and stumbled randomly on this one:

[youtube]http://youtu.be/LVXWbU-c-Qk?t=1h11m5s[/youtube]

TB, JonTron, Jesse Cox, and Dodger all discuss issues at the time, and it happens that this episode brought up the Polygon review of Dragon Crown, which is what keeps getting brought up, and hearing their reactions to this from last year and the discussion that happened. (Additionally, later in the episode talking about how Phil Fish ragequit the gaming industry and cancelled Fez 2. Good to see he decided to come back just to ragequit again)

This issue has been boiling for a long time now. It just so happened that things exploded a couple months ago. Rather interesting seeing similar debate points from a year ago, showing that this entire issue is not focused solely on Anita or Zoe. They just happened to be the ones who spoke up this time that caused the pot to boil over.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Saturos
Oct 30 2014, 04:50 PM
So, why exactly is Quinn contentious? Because she said a hypocritical thing and then is emotionally abusive? Is #Gamergate vetting the personal character of developers now, and doing it through emotional abuse in turn? Are others getting subjected to this?
This is the first time I've heard of this, so sorry if that's a lot of questions. >_>
No, it's cool. As I understand it, the main point of contention here is less that she acted hypocritically and more that she acted hypocritically with regard to rape (her definition), by applying a different standard to herself than to her partner. I don't think anyone here will contest that rape is kind of a big deal, so maybe that clears up why some people might be upset about that?

Also, since you mention it, Ryu, I actually linked Satty to a more recent Co-Optional podcast a while back where they discussed GG a bit and the brief controversy that JonTron experienced around the same time. I don't know if he watched it yet, because admittedly it was a long-ass video, but it had a lot of good insight in it imo.
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King in the North
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"People are starving in africa so you shouldn't talk about this" - JonTron :smashing:


What makes it even better is that I'm pretty he also used the "starving people" argument when people got angry at him for using the word r*tard on twitter.

But I think that part of the podcast is a pretty good perspective on the debate. Three adult men agreeing on the childish opinion that if you don't like it go somewhere else while one woman tries to make them see her problem with it, the fact that people got angry at a female reviewer reviewing a game from a female perspective and thus gave it a negative review and on that fact alone.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

Worse, it wasn't the generic "people starving in Africa" he used, he actually pulled "conflict in Palestine" which had been horribly violent at that time if I remember right
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

"This guy said a thing I don't like, that invalidates any good thing he could ever say."
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DJ Octavio
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Check out my spicy wasabi beats

Thanks for pointing that out Squee, I went and watched the more updated one. (For anyone interested, http://youtu.be/cf7i0z2Zi7U) and I can see Jon's position on it. He thinks the entire thing is stupid, and wants people to do what they want and doesn't want people shouting at him for what he thinks.

But he's been under attack for his views, and reports over twitter that he got doxxed. I doubt it was #gg that did it, too.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Sorry, I've been too busy/hungover today to go through those videos, but I will probably Tuesday, I promise.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

The Phantom Squee
Oct 31 2014, 02:18 PM
"This guy said a thing I don't like, that invalidates any good thing he could ever say."
Well that stuff was his response when people called him to the carpet over the fact that he was spreading a pornographic comic making fun of Zoe Quinn so I'd say it's pretty relevant to the conversation.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

That's the first I've heard of that.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

This was pretty early into this whole thing, possibly before the name Gamergate even existed?
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Sundancer
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Stargazer

Content warning for discussion of abuse.
Somewhat related to the origins of this; Zoe Quinn is dropping her case, and explained why.

It's a pretty important reminder of the very real, tangible effects on people's lives where this whole thing started.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

I feel really bad for Zoe Quinn. It boggles my mind that this thing is still ongoing or that people are still deluded by the whole thing. Some of the things she was sent are absolutely disgusting.
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Hisui
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Seccy "no fun allowed" Secundum

Another one-sided post from her. I know she was largely the victim in all of this (seriously, death threats over it?) but she DOES always try and paint herself as an angel, when she's a hypocritical hack.

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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

right in that post she admits that her past is not perfect and that she has made some mistakes.

I'm curious what makes her hypocritical? And also what makes her a hack? And, assuming that by "hack" you're referring to her programming or game design skills, what does that have to do with this blog post about her harassment?
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Nell
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The Pretender
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Ironically, her whole point seems to have been she's not enough of an angel to be a good enough victim to have won a case a trial.

I 100% understand why she didn't want to proceed with the case, but I actually think she would have had a reasonably good of getting him convicted.
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Momentime
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uh oh

wasn't she the one who bullied that indie dev or whatever or was that someone else
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

You might be getting that the wrong way around, Shads, but I might be wrong. As far as I know, she was the bullied indie dev.

Yeah, I confess I'm a little disappointed that she decided to drop the charges, but it is totally understandable.

I do think the whole "I'm not a good victim" speech is, itself, a way of garnering sympathy and positioning oneself as the victim (doubly over, since she's both a victim of the act itself, and also a victim of not conforming to the expectation of what "victim" should be). Of course, the bare facts themselves are enough to garner sympathy and establish her as the victim, so it's a moot point anyway.
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Sundancer
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Stargazer

Casual reminder that absolutely nobody deserves death threats and constant harassment in their lives and that of their friends and family. Nothing justifies conditions in which a person must live in a constant state of fear, and complex PTSD is a serious issue. Did you read the post, Seccy? She's sharing her truth, and a major part of it was, as Nell pointed out, that she felt she couldn't continue to maintain the very narrow and limited presentation of what is societally allowed and accepted "victimhood" (generally speaking, that angelic perfect victim) in trials like these to the extent of being able to achieve any sort of justice. She detailed extensively the toll this process has already taken on her personal life, her mental health, her relationships, her career, her reputation. What part of this is hypocrisy, or "painting herself like an angel"?

Shadow I have no clue what you're referring to, I think we're going to need a little bit more context here. >_>
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Momentime
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uh oh

literally the only thing i knew about gamergate, other than that it's a literal shitstorm, is that somebody bullied some indie game dev out of, donations or a campaign or something, and then /v/ came along and bailed them out. I thought it was pretty funny at the time. Turns out this Zoe Quinn is this someone and she bullied a really small indie dev to cancel some event so she could do her own. smh.

Everything else though I'm totally ignorant about and I want it to stay that way so no comment.
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