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SSB: Women, Men, & Gaming; I will make the topic
Topic Started: Sep 6 2014, 09:34 AM (14,621 Views)
The Abominator
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Why do you guys care so much about this.

Not stigmatising girls who plays games is good.

But why care about this one bimbo who made some drama.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Well, yeah, but I think the point is that she didn't really make the drama by herself (as Nell said, maybe she couldn't dealt with some things better, but #Gamergate didn't happen by itself, nor did the threats), and I think both sides agree it's about more than Quinn. And because it's sometimes good to care about the big issues, though not everyone has to.
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King in the North
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The_Abominator
Oct 30 2014, 06:17 AM
Why do you guys care so much about this.

Not stigmatising girls who plays games is good.

But why care about this one bimbo who made some drama.
Eh. I think it's a debate about sexism in video games that became a debate about free speech because some people couldn't hold their death threats to themselves and thinks that it's ok when it's not and one video game developers ex couldn't handle that she had sex with someone else and slut shames her on the internet and now everyone wants to be the victim and the good guys at the same time on all fronts of this "debate". It's a a very messy pile of a rising voice against sexism and patriarchy clashing with men taking it way too personal.

tl;dr feminism vs angry male gamers I think?

I don't know.
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Ian889
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Death comes to all of those who oppose me.

If anyone is interested about gaming journalism ethics total biscuit posted a video discussion with Stephen Tolio from Kotaku
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

damn this shit moved fast
The pains and pleasures of not having any internet access at home right now, I guess.


Something that I think is a big component of this whole issue, and the underlying issues that existed before Gamergate started that led to it, is the way people often interpret criticism of something they identify with (a label like "gamer," a movement like Gamergate, a specific game or movie or genre that you particularly like) as a criticism of the person itself. When I say "Gamergate is a misogynist movement" I do not mean that every person that identifies with the movement is a misogynist. I am looking at the actions and results achieved by the movement and this is what I see:

-At least three women, none of them game journalists, driven from their homes due to threats. Another high-profile (non-journalist) woman doxed immediately after criticizing Gamergate
-At least three other women writers quitting games writing because of extreme harassment, one due to completely false allegations of corruption and the others because they were heavily critical of the games industry and its representation of women and minorities
-Advertisments pulled from two websites as retaliation against criticisms of Gamergate
-One website revised its ethics policy a bit in response to questions about their ethics
-Many other women in the games industry (if you need some proof, I can show you plenty of their twitter accounts) saying they are scared right now of what could happen to them
-Some weaponized donations to charities, some of which have been refused by the charities themselves
-Phil Fish quits the gaming industry for the 4th time (props for that one at least I guess)

Even if many of the members of Gamergate say and honestly believe the movement is actually about ethics in videogames, almost ALL of the actual stuff they've done has been violence against women, most of whom aren't even game journalists in the first place. When you look at the actions of the movement as a whole (let alone some of its more high-profile members) it's clear that the movement is misogynist. Those members who don't believe so are being misled and used by those with significant influence.

When Anita Sarkeesian says that women's portrayal in Insert Videogame Title You Like Here is misogynist in one of her videos, that likewise does not mean she is saying that anyone who likes it (or even necessarily that those who made it) are misogynists. I think a lot of the anger people feel is because they have taken these kinds of criticisms as personal attacks against themselves, rather than what they actually are, criticisms of media.
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gnik drazil
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The sun no longer sets me free
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
i couldn't make it through the first paragraph of that wiki article.

i don't care, i play the video games and that's all i want to do.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Okay so thoughts on the ABC article.

Quote:
 
Furthermore, the games media has been infiltrated by activists who have an ideological agenda to disenfranchise gamers from their beloved hobby, and who want to change gaming irrevocably to align it with the values of feminism and the radical left. These values are not those held by most gamers, and this political intrusion is unwelcome in gaming circles.


This concern hasn't really been voiced at all by most GG supporters I've interacted with. Well, the radical left part, sure, but not the feminism part. Most of them have been all for inclusiveness in gaming.

Quote:
 
Of course, the nature of the beast is that there is no central guiding body on either side. Each individual is able to carve up and define the issues in their own way. Some people emphasise certain points more than others. Some people are sympathetic towards aspects of both views.


I think that quote pretty much hits the nail on the head. The problem with examples here is that you can find at least one supporting literally any aspect of either side that you choose. Doxxing? Elements on both sides have done it. Threats of physical harm? Both sides have done it. Posing as a member of the opposition group and acting up to give them a bad name? Obviously this one's more or less impossible to prove, but I think there's reasonable circumstantial evidence that it's also been done by people on both sides. Likewise, both sides have attempted to self-police (I've actually only seen pro-GG self-policing, but I'm assuming there's been plenty on the anti-GG side too). Both have members who have attempted to open up a rational discourse with members of the other side. By focusing only on individual examples instead of looking at one or both groups holistically, you can find evidence to paint either side however you like.

This also brings me to the "what have they accomplished" argument, which I find a bit disingenuous. The anti-GG group has a strong association with feminism, so by extension a number of the things feminism has achieved tend to get grouped with them by association. GG itself has only been around for, what, a month? Accomplishments over a month vs. accomplishments over 100+ years is a pretty imbalanced comparison. If you dissociate the anti-GG faction from feminism, you find that they haven't really accomplished anything either.

Anyway, to continue with the article.

I'm not sure I buy their fundamental association of GG with conservative values. There's some good insight here about the conservative mindset in general, but I haven't really seen that association with GG in particular.

The part about the siege mentality seems to be a good way to phrase what I've gotten from many pro-GG people. Like Crash said above, many of them do feel like they are personally being attacked by anti-GG rhetoric or the phrasing that critics like Anita use in their videos. They hear her talk about, say, Hitman using the phrase "the player is supposed to get a perverse pleasure [from killing prostitutes]" (can't remember whether that's the exact phrasing, but to the best of my memory it communicates the same tone) and--putting aside for the moment the "but that's wrong" response--that says to them that because they enjoyed the game as a whole, she is accusing them of enjoying senseless slaughter by extension. I think the fault here lies partly with the people reading it looking to get upset, and partly with the content producers for not phrasing a potentially polarizing opinion with greater care.

Since the article brings up Quinn, here's what I've seen about her lately. The accusations of her using sex to get positive reviews don't hold up. That much seems pretty undeniable to me. The crux of the Quinn issue now, from what I've seen, is that she had earlier made a post stating that she believed that if a person concealed their sexual history from their partner, then any consent that person gave was invalidated--and then it turned out that she had concealed her sexual history from the ex who made The Post (tm). By her own definition, this would make her a rapist. There was something about her exhibiting signs of being emotionally abusive too, I think? I didn't look into that one much. I'm not endorsing this view, just putting it out there as what I understand to be the main point of contention against her.

I agree with the article's criticism of the ethics in game journalism motive--it's misguided at best to focus on indie developers and ignore the AAA games.

Quote:
 
This disconnect between the originators of GamerGate and those who have come to support it is one of the main causes of friction when discussing it. Opponents of GamerGate focus on the anti-"SJW" angle while supporters focus on the ethics angle, and then blast each others' straw man. It ends up being a purely destructive endeavour.


Good paragraph.

Overall, not a bad article. A few basic assumptions in there that I'm not sure I agree with, but a good way to get up to speed on what exactly is going on and a good conclusion laying out where we need to go from here.
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The Abominator
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gnik drazil
Oct 30 2014, 01:35 PM
i couldn't make it through the first paragraph of that wiki article.

i don't care, i play the video games and that's all i want to do.
It's longer than the article on WW2

I didn't even start reading it
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Well, the opening paragraph is a good summary. But, you don't need to ask for a summary and then say "I don't care, I just want to play video games." In which case, carry on as usual. xP

Quote:
 
This concern hasn't really been voiced at all by most GG supporters I've interacted with. Well, the radical left part, sure, but not the feminism part. Most of them have been all for inclusiveness in gaming.

Which is great and speaks well of your group. Unfortunately, a lot of the discussions I see in comment sections or on Youtube is full of this sentiment, that gaming was one of the last bastions for men where they could avoid women, that gaming is for boys, and that women should stay out. This is from people explicitly supporting Gamergate, too. So those elements definitely exist, even if it's from the "faceless multitude," as it were.

So, why exactly is Quinn contentious? Because she said a hypocritical thing and then is emotionally abusive? Is #Gamergate vetting the personal character of developers now, and doing it through emotional abuse in turn? Are others getting subjected to this?
This is the first time I've heard of this, so sorry if that's a lot of questions. >_>
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Peytral
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peytral pls

Saturos
Oct 30 2014, 04:50 PM
Youtube
Gee [radio edit]ing whiz
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gnik drazil
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The sun no longer sets me free
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
bleeding hearts: "video games are sexist!"

gamergate: "[radio edit] off and die"

bleeding hearts: "oh! i'm telling on you!"

that's what i got out of it.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Yes, Youtube comments are stupid, but it's also lowest-common-denominator and one of the main sources of unfiltered access to uncurated, "general populace" opinions, along with comment sections. They are sometimes really stupid, but that's still people affiliating with #Gamergate. Since there's no centralized figure, as has been said, it's easy to jump onto.

EDIT: Not a matter of 'bleeding hearts' so much as academic analysis. You could easily turn that kind of language around and say it's the "gamers" who have bleeding hearts, because they couldn't stand a bit of criticism. I'm not saying that, just pointing out it's kind of ridiculous to say "Oh it's those damn bleeding-heart liberals at it again"
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gnik drazil
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The sun no longer sets me free
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as initiators they are bleeding hearts.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Technically #Gamergate was started because Zoe Quinn's ex was mad and slandered her with a fake story about sleeping with a journalist for positive coverage (long proven false), and this primed a bunch of gamers into a frenzy about "journalist ethics" and "how dare she use her body to get ahead."

But, what part exactly of "sexism in games" is bleeding hearts? Like, no one says you have to listen to the criticism, but it's pretty hard to argue it doesn't exist. It's a sign that video games are taken seriously now/the progress that they've made that they're subject to analytic criticism. I don't know how that's offensive.
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Saturos
Oct 30 2014, 05:19 PM
Yes, Youtube comments are stupid, but it's also lowest-common-denominator and one of the main sources of unfiltered access to uncurated, "general populace" opinions, along with comment sections. They are sometimes really stupid, but that's still people affiliating with #Gamergate. Since there's no centralized figure, as has been said, it's easy to jump onto.
I really don't think you get to consider youtube and article comments as "discussions". I have never seen a productive discussion in comments, on any subject, ever. They are always filled with people who have no intention of ever changing their opinions spouting the most idiotic, inflammatory shit they can come up with.

So, no, excuse me for not considering them valid forms of discourse in any way, shape, or form, except to show what the dregs of an opinion have to say.

Gnik, I have no idea why you ask for a summary, refuse to read it, state you don't care, and then insist on posting your own "summary".
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

I don't think Gjoni himself actually insinuated that she slept with the guy for coverage, that was just the false conclusion readers came to. He just said that they had sex.

I think Twitter is a much better place to gauge the average Gamergater's opinion, particularly since that's where the movement got its legs and where most of its discussion happens. Just make any post with the hashtag and you'll get plenty of randos in your mentions because they searched the tag.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

HyrulianJedi
Oct 30 2014, 08:32 PM
Saturos
Oct 30 2014, 05:19 PM
Yes, Youtube comments are stupid, but it's also lowest-common-denominator and one of the main sources of unfiltered access to uncurated, "general populace" opinions, along with comment sections. They are sometimes really stupid, but that's still people affiliating with #Gamergate. Since there's no centralized figure, as has been said, it's easy to jump onto.
I really don't think you get to consider youtube and article comments as "discussions". I have never seen a productive discussion in comments, on any subject, ever. They are always filled with people who have no intention of ever changing their opinions spouting the most idiotic, inflammatory shit they can come up with.

So, no, excuse me for not considering them valid forms of discourse in any way, shape, or form, except to show what the dregs of an opinion have to say.

Gnik, I have no idea why you ask for a summary, refuse to read it, state you don't care, and then insist on posting your own "summary".
Well, I also mentioned the comments sections on various web articles discussing this and some of the pro-#Gamergate threads I've read, so it's not just Youtube.
I've seen quite a few productive Youtube discussions. >_> <_<
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gnik drazil
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The sun no longer sets me free
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
HyrulianJedi
Oct 30 2014, 08:32 PM
Saturos
Oct 30 2014, 05:19 PM
Yes, Youtube comments are stupid, but it's also lowest-common-denominator and one of the main sources of unfiltered access to uncurated, "general populace" opinions, along with comment sections. They are sometimes really stupid, but that's still people affiliating with #Gamergate. Since there's no centralized figure, as has been said, it's easy to jump onto.
I really don't think you get to consider youtube and article comments as "discussions". I have never seen a productive discussion in comments, on any subject, ever. They are always filled with people who have no intention of ever changing their opinions spouting the most idiotic, inflammatory shit they can come up with.

So, no, excuse me for not considering them valid forms of discourse in any way, shape, or form, except to show what the dregs of an opinion have to say.

Gnik, I have no idea why you ask for a summary, refuse to read it, state you don't care, and then insist on posting your own "summary".
i did read it. part of it. am i not allowed an opinion on what i read?
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

You certainly can, but it looks kind of silly when you're making an opinion based on not all the facts, or an incomplete data. It's true that no one can really know every fact of a complex topic like this, but you can still have an informed opinion. Likewise, I'm allowed to express my opinion by criticizing yours, and explaining on what grounds I find it objectionable.

This should really be spelled out somewhere, so I can't blame you for it: but the SSB prefix on the topic indicates that it's a "Serious Serious Business" (after an old debate forum we had), so generally standards and depth of discussion are held a bit higher. But you couldn't have known that, so I'll make sure it's in the rules somewhere.
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
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Of course you are.

I just don't know why you would want to make yourself look stupid by doing it in the way you did.
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