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| SSB: Women, Men, & Gaming; I will make the topic | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 6 2014, 09:34 AM (14,616 Views) | |
| Jenn-uh | Sep 6 2014, 09:34 AM Post #1 |
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hunny bunchkins sugarcube lettuce chamomile sweetie pumpkin schnitzel fries
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I've talked with Squee on tumblr and to some extent in the Slumber Party about FemFreq's Tropes vs Women in Video Games youtube series. We're overdue for a topic in a forum everyone has access to. So anyways. I don't actually play many vidja games and the ones I do are handheld ones like Golden Sun, Harvest Moon, Pokemon, and Animal Crossing. I have never played the games featured in Tropes vs Women in Video Games, but I enjoy watching the videos and thinking about its criticisms. I have heard members here who I respect (and have played more games than I have) express discontent with FemFreq's video content and methods of production, but haven't had the opportunity to talk at length with them about it. So, BAM here's a good topic of discussion. Also, I don't want to limit this topic to just FemFreq's series, because there's so much more to this conversation than that. |
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| Hisui | Sep 6 2014, 01:32 PM Post #2 |
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Seccy "no fun allowed" Secundum
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Having never heard of her before this, and only watching 3 of the videos in that link, I think she's coming at it from a feminist perspective, rather than a neutral one, which makes them kinda biased. I'll watch the others at some point. |
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| The Phantom Squee | Sep 6 2014, 03:54 PM Post #3 |
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"
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Personally, I think she's a hack. I'd have to address each of her videos individually to go into detail, but overall she seems to me like she operates on a very basic level that amounts to just pointing at an example out of context and saying "this looks misogynistic." I get the impression that she goes into her process looking for evidence that she can use to support her conclusion, rather than forming said conclusion based on the evidence she finds, which is a fundamentally flawed methodology. This leads to her making some claims that, to me, seem anti-feminist in nature. For instance:
THAT SAID, I do think that her videos have had a positive impact in that they're encouraging people to talk about the issue of sexism within the gaming industry, which is a very real problem. I just wish that it was being discussed by somebody less inclined to dismiss all dissenting opinions as misogyny, and that the talking it's encouraging was less ad hominem and more actual discourse. |
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| Dracobolt | Sep 6 2014, 04:04 PM Post #4 |
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Incorrigible
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Yeah, I was not impressed by what I've seen of her videos. The responses to them by a certain segment of the male gaming community are way out of proportion, however.
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| Nell | Sep 6 2014, 05:36 PM Post #5 |
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The Pretender
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Seccy, did you get the fact that it was going to be a feminist argument from, like, the title of the series, or something? Like I said when we were talking about it in the SP - her arguments are flawed. HOWEVER, the content of her videos has been out-shined, for a long time now, by the backlash she's been getting. I may not agree with what she says, but I do support her right to say it without being threatened or harassed, and I like to think I would be totally fine with anything that deconstructed her reasoning. But the vast majority of those opposed to her have taken the route of attacking her person, attacking her credibility as a gamer and attacking the idea of her as some woman who wants to make games un-fun, which at its lowest level is poor rhetoric, and at the level that it's been floating at is, in my opinion, kind of something we should all be looking at and saying, "Hey, dudes, that's really not okay". Are all those criticising her/her work doing so for misogynistic purposes? No. But I think the ones that are a problem are. And if it's concerning to you that your legitimate complaints about her are being drowned out by those guys, or that you're being lumped in with them as a general group - even if you're not concerned about them as a force on their own - then that, I feel, should be enough of a reason to stand up (in whatever capacity that entails for you personally) against them. (Thanks for making the thread, Jenna. I was thinking about it, and then I was like, nah, it shouldn't come from me AGAIN, and here it is. And I think, if it's okay with you, we should open it up to talk about the whole #GamerGate thing in general.) EDIT: And because this got linked to my Facebook feed and I don't want to lose it: some evidence that #GamerGate was completely manufactured by 4chan https://storify.com/strictmachine/gameovergate |
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| Hisui | Sep 6 2014, 07:02 PM Post #6 |
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Seccy "no fun allowed" Secundum
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Nothing wrong with being a feminist-what IS wrong is seeing everything through feminist-tinted goggles. |
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| Nell | Sep 6 2014, 07:08 PM Post #7 |
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The Pretender
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My point was: it was signalled very clearly and very early on that it was going to be a feminist argument. It was never meant to be a 'neutral' approach (though how many things are, really), so expecting it to be one was always going to be, to some extent, a fallacy. That's like going into a movie called Space Alien Meteor Blasters and coming out saying, "Well, I wish that had been a teen high school romance". |
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| Momentime | Sep 6 2014, 07:22 PM Post #8 |
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uh oh
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The entire point of the series is that it offers a (imo flawed) feminist viewpoint from which the audience may look through and consider what it agrees with and what it doesn't. It's SUPPOSED to be entirely feminist. |
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| Saturos | Sep 6 2014, 07:40 PM Post #9 |
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heart-under-blade
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Full disclosure: I've seen only a few of her women and video games videos, and all of her tropes vs. women ones. Yeah, voicing agreement with Squee and Nell's posts. I think Sarkeesian presents a somewhat distorted view of women in video games, since she's explicitly focusing only on the negatives and leaving out the positives. I think this one-sided approach is a bit counterproductive, though I agree that it has at least started some discussion about feminist issues in games. Of course, ad hominems and especially all the threats are deplorable and inexcusable. There's nothing wrong with a feminist perspective. In fact, when you're talking about gender in video games, a proper feminist perspective would be the most informed and context-appropriate way of addressing the issue, because it would allow you to talk about how gender is constructed in general. Buuuuut as was said, Sarkeesian is analyzing single tropes in games, not making a comprehensive analysis. I think that may be a tactical error, but one I'm sympathetic too. Sarkeesian seems overwhelmed enough as is to try to present her ideas in the proper context (she doesn't do a very good job of this). I feel she might be committing a bit of the English major fallacy for a student paper and selecting information that supports her thesis and looking at it from that side alone. I think it's important, when criticizing something, to remember the shit sandwich: bread of what's good and then criticizing the shit in the middle, which allows people to open up to you as you praise something/be more receptive to the coming criticism, but also end with a good impression to feel like there are some things you agree on. So a bit more of a balanced coverage: this is what's not working, this is what's working, would be nice. I hope that it at least paves the way for a comprehensive analysis and more coherent journalism in the future. |
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| Momentime | Sep 6 2014, 08:02 PM Post #10 |
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uh oh
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Journalism in the professional world is held up to a standard, something that video game journalism does not enjoy having in the slightest. Pretty much the entire staff of Kotaku does not know how to write an unbiased article, or even do their research, quality notwithstanding (which is all shit, all the time. I've never seen a quality Kotaku article). IGN's not much better, they pretty much cater to the lowest common denominator. So if you ask me, you should forget about having any hope for coherent vg journalism, at least in the near future. |
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| Nell | Sep 6 2014, 08:09 PM Post #11 |
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The Pretender
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And/or video game criticism. I do think Sarkeesian put herself in a bit of a weird position by trying to make what are pretty academically-inclined arguments for general viewing - like, it's not that I don't think there isn't an audience for this kind of thing, but finding the balance between accessibility and being intellectually profound is actually pretty hard. (It does help if your arguments are persuasive, too.) |
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| ShinyGirafarig | Sep 6 2014, 08:19 PM Post #12 |
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Giraffes are adorable.
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I find it weird that most people do not have a problem telling off DC Comics for not having a Wonder Woman movie or another super heroine movie but when it comes to video games, all hell breaks loose. |
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| Crash | Sep 6 2014, 08:29 PM Post #13 |
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!
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Tropes vs Women is pretty feminism 101 but that's what makes the reaction so amazing to see. The reaction she gets pretty much completely justifies the need for such a basic-level analysis in this sphere of culture. I think this most recent video, Women as Background Decoration part 2, was the first one to really impress me. The last five minutes or so were pretty good and there were some examples that literally had my jaw dropping (holy [radio edit] No More Heroes) Really though let's talk about how this whole clamor for "integrity" in games journalism right now is complete bullshit being used as a cover by internet communities to harass women (and to a lesser extent men who defend these women) whom they already hated. For [radio edit]'s sake my literally favorite games media writer Jenn Frank was harassed enough a few days ago to completely quit writing, because of some "corruption" accusations that weren't even sound to begin with. |
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| Saturos | Sep 7 2014, 01:55 AM Post #14 |
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heart-under-blade
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What would your ideal games journalism be like, Shads? Like, tonewise, contentwise, etc. There was a good article on gaming as an enthusiastic press vs. gaming as a newspaper style/objective press. I think if you want people to be excited for games and get inside scoops, a degree of closeness with developers and publishers is necessary. There's definitely corruption in the mainstream media, as well, and that's how I react to that. You can in turn bring it to light (within reason, a professional connection isn't necessarily corruption if no bribes were exchanged). And in terms of the Jenn Frank issue Crash mentioned, she put a disclaimer talking about her professional connections into the article (aka she supported Zoe Quinn, and met Sarkeesian once), and The Guardian removed it because it wasn't relevant. And the Guardian is one of the better mainstream newspapers, imo. So I don't know what standards you have in mind... But still, apparently that was sufficient grounds (in addition to the whole "defending Sarkeesian" thing) to harass her out of journalism. *shrugs* I'm actually not clear on what grounds she was criticized beyond that, so I'd appreciate some info on that... |
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| Nell | Sep 7 2014, 02:17 AM Post #15 |
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The Pretender
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To my knowledge, the idea of corruption in the video game |
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| Saturos | Sep 7 2014, 02:44 AM Post #16 |
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heart-under-blade
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And there's that, yes. ^^;; |
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| Momentime | Sep 7 2014, 09:08 AM Post #17 |
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uh oh
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Well it just so happened that NYT just ran a piece on dota, and of course it was of a remarkably higher quality than pretty much anything and everything vg journalism could have done. Same with GQ, though imo not as good but still miles ahead of vg journalism. Those two are the only real examples that I have atm, maybe I'll go look for more later. Is it a lot to ask for? Yes. Maybe even unfair? Probably but idgaf. |
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| Kiki | Sep 7 2014, 12:05 PM Post #18 |
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Kiki Martius Chantico
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For anyone interested, here is the article linked by Satty, originally posted by Nell in the sbox: https://medium.com/@upstreamism/to-fair-minded-proponents-of-gamergate-7f3ce77301bb And here's my feelings on what the Gamegate has become (never mind how it started and how the whole thing is a load of crock 4chan drama anyway) : A big part of this issue is that people are so protective of the "gamer" label and the idea of gaming as a field/industry/hobby that is a small community that is somehow special from other entertainment media. A big part of this issue is that people are so protective of the "gamer" label and the idea of gaming as a field/industry/hobby that is a small community that is somehow special from other entertainment media I was gonna say more and talk about an interested article that Squee linked, but my brain is fried from just reading another Gamergate conversation on Facebook that was rife with comparisons to Isis (???), rape and rape culture, and personal anecdotes being used as concrete evidence. So maybe later. |
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| Momentime | Sep 7 2014, 02:35 PM Post #19 |
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uh oh
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IMO the label of 'gamer' is pretty [radio edit]ing stupid to begin with. No other hobby has its enthusiasts feel the need to label themselves in such a way, or feel the need to rabidly defend such a thing in the first place. Someone who's an aspiring footballer/b-ball pro won't call themselves a footballer/b ball player. Not in chess either. You're either just a guy who plays or a grandmaster, and you would have good reason to call yourself a grandmaster if you are one. So on and so forth. Even me personally, yeah I game and I game a lot but I don't think I'll ever call myself a gamer because a) it implies my life revolves around gaming, which it doesn't and b) You guys can see this for yourselves, the people who label themselves as gamers aren't pleasant at all. Not something I'd want to be associated with. |
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| Jenn-uh | Sep 7 2014, 03:30 PM Post #20 |
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hunny bunchkins sugarcube lettuce chamomile sweetie pumpkin schnitzel fries
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I've seen similar labeling and elitism in sports communities though. "He's not a legit gamer" reminds me a lot of "He's not a real Blackhawk fan". |
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