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Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS
Topic Started: Jul 10 2014, 12:09 PM (51,356 Views)
Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

I think he's much more open to that scene these days even if he doesn't think Smash should be played that way. For Glory Mode is an example of this, and he isn't going to actively discourage competitive Smash just because that isn't how he sees his series.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

It's funny, people who are anti-competitive smash criticize the competitive scene for thinking the game can only be played one way, but in my experience the anti-competitive types are the only ones ever calling for certain options to become mandatory or forced.
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Bane Martius Agni
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Archon Agni, of Clan Martius

The only problem I have with the competitive scene is their "items are unfair, don't you want an even playing ground" thing. It's even because it's crazy random, and the lot of you can fight over the items. It's about who's best with what's been handed to you, not who's the best with the bare, stripped down game. Same thing with the final destination thing, actually. Some characters do well with flat stages, others with platforms. Saying that a flat stage is the only fair stage is a little ridiculous.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

Many fans of Mario Kart wish they can toggle off the blue shell. Why is that any different from wanting to get rid of some or all the items in Smash?
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

The Brawl scene actually played with items on for a while, and probably would have kept some of them on if not for the fact that there's no way to stop containers from having a 30% chance of exploding when they break, which is just ridiculous. Overall though, items just favor faster characters since they can reach them faster, so it really isn't even.

Final Destination hasn't been the favored "neutral" stage for years and years, either. A lot of people were pretty critical of the fact that For Glory mode will only feature Final Destination stages because of this.
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Deleted User
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Crash
Jul 23 2014, 04:40 PM
The Brawl scene actually played with items on for a while, and probably would have kept some of them on if not for the fact that there's no way to stop containers from having a 30% chance of exploding when they break, which is just ridiculous. Overall though, items just favor faster characters since they can reach them faster, so it really isn't even.

Final Destination hasn't been the favored "neutral" stage for years and years, either. A lot of people were pretty critical of the fact that For Glory mode will only feature Final Destination stages because of this.
Not to mention it's also a lot to do with where on the stage items spawn, which is more luck.

I agree with the Final Destination bit, as well; Battlefield is a better (and more fun) neutral stage than FD imo. FD favours projectiles, too, and I'm more of a rushdown/beatdown kind of player, so I'm biased there :awe:
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
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Bane Martius Agni
Jul 23 2014, 04:26 PM
The only problem I have with the competitive scene is their "items are unfair, don't you want an even playing ground" thing. It's even because it's crazy random, and the lot of you can fight over the items. It's about who's best with what's been handed to you, not who's the best with the bare, stripped down game. Same thing with the final destination thing, actually. Some characters do well with flat stages, others with platforms. Saying that a flat stage is the only fair stage is a little ridiculous.
Because, in addition to items favoring faster characters, as mentioned, items themselves are inherently unbalanced. Things like the Beam Saber and Sticky Bomb are fine, but things like the Hammers, Dragoon, and Smash Balls give whoever gets them a significant advantage - and even then, it still comes down to plain luck often enough (breaking a Smash Ball, picking up a hammer, grabbing a Clock, etc).

It's not about being "handed" things. It's about random actions that, over many matches, may prove to be equalizing because of the nature of chaos. But in that one match, no, a lot of items inherently unbalance the ability for skill to determine the winner in close matches.

When you're playing someone to determine who is better, having a star fall on them, or an exploding capsule in front of you right as you attack, does nothing to help that.
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

Yeah, while I think items themselves are a measurement of one's skill in how they're utilised, the random aspects far outweigh elements of strategy and replace them with luck. A Bob-omb falling from nowhere and blowing you up because you launched an attack moments before is pretty terrible. And this is coming from someone who adores the chaotic side of Smash and many of the items in the series.
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Role
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Fulminous Witch
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Actually, that's a good point. For Smash in particular, Battlefield is a much better option for competitive play as it highlights smash's features more.
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leaf
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Crimson Leaf Vermillion

Bane
 
The only problem I have with the competitive scene is their "items are unfair, don't you want an even playing ground" thing. It's even because it's crazy random, and the lot of you can fight over the items. It's about who's best with what's been handed to you, not who's the best with the bare, stripped down game. Same thing with the final destination thing, actually. Some characters do well with flat stages, others with platforms. Saying that a flat stage is the only fair stage is a little ridiculous.

Well bane, it's not your fault that you think that, but you've been painted a horribly incomplete picture of the competitive scene. Despite the meme, final destination is not the only stage played in competition, and in fact it is a very polarizing stage because it has no platforms. Honestly, as a competitive player, I hate sakurai's implementation of "for glory" mode, because it just perpetuates the mistaken belief that competitive players only play on FD.

In melee, there are five "neutral" stages - yoshi's story, fountain of dreams, dreamland 64, battlefield, and final destination. Kongo jungle 64 replaces fountain of dreams in doubles, since FoD actually has framerate issues with 4 people on screen. Pokemon stadium used to be a neutral stage as well, but it got moved to counterpick because it was proved to favor fox too much (and because the competitive crowd transitioned from using random for the first stage to using a stage striking system, which requires an odd number of starter stages). Each of these stages are "fair" to the players, having minimal interference with the fight. (Honestly, considering that 4/5 of them are tri-platform stages, I'm surprised that hasn't been made fun of more than the FD nonsense.)

Rainbow cruise was actually a neutral stage for a while, before getting moved to counterpick when it was found to favor certain characters too much, and eventually banned when it was found just how abusable it could be. Think about that: Rainbow cruise, which is constantly moving, with all sorts of wonky platform setups, was considered a neutral stage for years. Competitive players don't ban stages just because they don't like them; they always ban stages for a reason, which usually translates to abuse cases. Fox is the main culprit for a lot of stages getting banned (terrible combo vid by today's standards, but that yoshi's island clip shows exactly what is wrong with walkoff stages in smash bros), but peach has also gotten a number of stages banned, too. Fourside was a joint-venture, for instance; walls that fox can shine infinite on, and peach can use her sideB to stall forever in the crevices deep below the main stage, where many characters simply cannot reach. On icicle mountain, the stage simply scrolls too fast for some characters to keep up, making it a highly abusable stage for those that do have vertical mobility. Temple has the cave of life, which arguably already makes it banworthy due to it being possible for anyone to infinitely stall a match by camping down there, but fox takes it to another level, running around the entire stage while lasering you until you're at 150%, all the while being uncatchable.

The competitive smash crowd has always favored banning stages over characters whenever possible, which is why fox was never banned, but half of the stages were (a number of them would've been banned anyway, though). It wasn't until metaknight in brawl that a character had to be banned, due to being broken on literally all of the stages, rather than just some of them.

As for your item argument... It's simply a different way of playing the game. Competitive players want to fight each other, not the game. That means the big game changers have to be excluded. If a bob-omb just happens to spawn next to you while you're attacking your opponent and you both end up getting sent flying off screen, it doesn't say anything about the skill of the players; it's simply bad luck.

Theoretically, you could make a case for allowing certain items at a low setting in a competitive environment, but it's extremely fuzzy on where you draw the line. Anything that can be a game changer like bob-ombs, stars, or heart containers are obviously out, but what about pokeballs? Sometimes those can be near OHKOs, while other times it's a useless goldeen. Maybe you could allow green shells, but are red shells too disruptive in a match? The ray gun, when timed correctly, can combo someone for 16 shots straight, amassing a gigantic lead off of a single item. Should that really be allowed? Nevermind the fact that you can't control capsules/crates/barrels spawning, and sometimes they're a bomb, while other times they're just a light hit that releases another item. This random element, which might be something that casual players enjoy, is something competitive players don't want influencing tournament results, where money is on the line.

So again, I will say that it's simply a different way of playing the game. If you enjoy items and crazy stages, no one is saying you can't play on them. Just don't go to a tournament expecting that.
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
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Battlefield was always my go-to stage for "duels" with the guys I worked with.

I more or less refused to acknowledge New Pork City as a real stage, so whenever we played there, I spent the entire time trying to feed people to the Ultimate Chimera.

I was moderately successful. :nyoron:
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

Mine was Smashville! Especially on Saturday nights~
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leaf
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Crimson Leaf Vermillion

My favorites are probably battlefield and projectm!stadium 2. Smashville at night is fun (especially when you have this as one of the songs, along with various other melty blood songs that seem to fit all too well on that stage).
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
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Overall stagewise, Fountain of Dreams and Fourside are my favorites. Both are gorgeous and get me distracted too easily. Also Fourside is where I picked up Ness as a main, courtesy of that [radio edit]ing event in Melee.
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

The one with all the space fighters? :3

I was really fond of the Super Mario World stage as a kid. It's kind of awkward to play on now but god damn, the music and art style was awesome to me at the time.
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

New 3DS and Wii U images!

Damn, Robin looks so badass. Also, Captain Falcon is making me question my sexuality.
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I think this one is my favourite.

Robin looks so cool! And lol the Robin and Lucina Kirby hats.
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

"Hey look, I've become a Taguel!"
"God dammit Robin."
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FOX ONLY, NO ITEMS, FINAL DESTINATION
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FrozenWrath
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Somebody

Raven the Obsidian
http://forum.templeofkraden.com/single/?p=8716732&t=7425240
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