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Regarding the Staff's Handling of Ulta's Topic; and Bowse's subsequent suspension
Topic Started: Sep 27 2011, 02:48 AM (3,487 Views)
b l o n d e b o n d
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Kiki
Sep 28 2011, 01:49 PM
So what do you guys think of this remedy:

-Staffers take more consideration when issuing punishments in the future.
-If a ban or suspension is possible, the user is notified and the entire staff discusses the possibility for a day
-Immediate-action punishments are warns and post-preview. These can be done without the entire staff conferring because they are easy to take back, and need to be done quickly in order to stop a flame war or trolling spree.
[yt-sound]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHk1RmPzA5E[/yt-sound]
To set the mood.


I was going to suggest this exactly.
I've been an administrator for TF2 servers for a couple months now, and I've had my fair share of dealing with difficult situations. In general, I support actions taken to offenses in the following process:

- For minor offenses that are nonetheless offenses individual administrators and moderators can handle the situation by themselves. The rules are usually clear enough to have a simple consequence i.e. a visible, official warning given from a staff member.
- For continued minor offenses, a larger deterrent is required, but one staff member can still take care of it. This is where post preview becomes the option of choice; by showing muscle and saying you can control any offensive posts, this will sort out the weaker from the more persistent.
- In general, no one should be held above scrutiny. Regardless of whether Bowse's punishment was unfair, he was a moderator and should be held to an even higher standard than regular members. It is my believe that staff should be punished to a higher degree for offenses because these offenses highlight a lack of control, which is NOT a trait I want a moderator to have. Moderators should have strong judgement abilities and self control; clearly Bowse didn't behave like a Moderator at all during this scenario. A suspension is something I don't agree with, but certainly his trustworthiness as a mod should be examined. I'm not saying his mod privilege should be removed, but people change over time, and Bowse may no longer be the person he was a few months ago, as Artemis has noted as his opinion.
- Any offenses that could potentially be extremely serious but feather the line are too big for one staff's opinion. If there is an offense that could have an extreme consequence like a ban or suspension the offender should be shut down (read: prevented from compounding his offense, as in an instant post preview, signature forcibly revised if porn is present, ec cetera) and the issue should be brought up asap in the staff forum, where as many staffers as possible should be able to understand and provide an opinion on the issue.
- As a corollary, I say that any punishment involving a suspension or ban must have the consent of Saturos himself. In my two years here he's done a fantastic job of maintaining peace and order on his forum, with a strong yet kind hand of justice that only uses extreme measures when all the other options are unavailable. The fact that Saturos didn't decide on this suspension and then he came into the topic and noted his dissent worries me.

This is my opinion.


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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

ßond
Sep 28 2011, 02:24 PM
Regardless of whether Bowse's punishment was unfair, he was a moderator
News to me and the rest of the staff!
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Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

That was a truly mighty swing and a miss.
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Princess Emi
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I'm the motherfactoring princess

Crash
Sep 28 2011, 02:27 PM
ßond
Sep 28 2011, 02:24 PM
Regardless of whether Bowse's punishment was unfair, he was a moderator
News to me and the rest of the staff!
I thought Adnarel was a mod for some reason, too... :x

anyway
I think what Kiki said sounds all right to try, but I just read up in the past 10 minutes after being completely unaware this topic existed, so idk so much about the situation.
>_> in general I think people should think to themselves "does this post have the capacity to seem rude/mean/trolling?" or something like that before the post is even made. but when you're in a hurry to reply to a topic and get your opinion in or get that silly joke out... there's plenty of chance to miss the other ways the post could be considered.
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simplechild
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My only feel is murder
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Fact stays nonetheless: any infraction made by a staffer will indeed be put in higher scrutiny when judgment is considered.

Also, Adna used to be a mod, which is probably why you're confused.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Yeah, Bowse has never been a mod. And I don't think our former mods should be held to a higher level of accountability: they are just normal members now.
Of course, saying "just normal members" isn't necessarily true: normal members are the heart and soul of this forum, and if conflicts ultimately will be resolved for good, it will occur between members.
Also, I don't even think current mods should be punished more severely for their mistakes. Our staff are volunteers, and though they try their best, they can make mistakes. However, a mod who flames or causes problems might want to ask themselves why they want to be on the mod team. <_<
Mods are supposed to keep the community together, prevent it from fracturing, and keep everyone happy and comfortable. If someone can't do that, then...

Thanks for the vote of confidence though, Bond. ^^;
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The Commander
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Kill Thalmor.

I'm not totally sure if deliberation is right in all cases. In this case, in which it was a member who has been around for some time and generally held in good standing with the forums, and is doing something that is somewhat atypical, but not insanely harmful, yes, perhaps an informal verbal warning and a PM to stop, and then some deliberation and discussion if it is still deemed necessary. If it's deemed a one-time issue, than handle it as such. If more extreme measures are needed, then fine. In this scenario, sitting down and handling it in a committee is probably better than heavy-handed dictatorship ruling.

However, if some half-baked internet loser comes around and starts posting porn, lol /b/4chan/b/lol crap in every topic, making insulting and derogatory comments and/or other such behavior, I don't want to see him flounce around the forums ruining everything while we wait for bureaucratic red tape, I want to see the guy banned, and the forums cleaned up ASAP.

Now, those are two extreme measures, but I think being selective about when a committee is necessary and when it's not is a better idea than one or the other.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Oh yeah, there's no question in that second case, Amiti. xD We tend to go on a case-by-case basis ideally, and if it's something that crosses zetaboards ToS, it's instakill.
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Kiki
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Kiki Martius Chantico

Commander Amiti
Sep 28 2011, 03:13 PM

However, if some half-baked internet loser comes around and starts posting porn, lol /b/4chan/b/lol crap in every topic, making insulting and derogatory comments and/or other such behavior, I don't want to see him flounce around the forums ruining everything while we wait for bureaucratic red tape, I want to see the guy banned, and the forums cleaned up ASAP. \
In this case, he would be immediately put on post preview and all his posts be deleted, so there would be no delay in the forums being cleaned up. If what he posts violates Zetaboards rules, (posting porn) then he would probably be banned as soon as an admin signed on. If there's any doubt that he violated Zetaboards rules, then he still deserves the deliberation period. But if he's THAT bad, he'll probably be banned anyway, so don't worry.

haha I assumed that such a crude user would be a "he", sorry.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

Well, Amiti said "him" first. But using "he" in cases where gender is indeterminate is still correct grammar, right? Or did activists get that changed
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

What a sexist
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Kula Diamond
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atlus tracts

Commander Amiti
Sep 28 2011, 03:13 PM
However, if some half-baked internet loser comes around and starts posting porn, lol /b/4chan/b/lol crap in every topic, making insulting and derogatory comments and/or other such behavior
porn lol/b/ omfg i am so funny you guys suxx0r btw lolol rofl
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Ian889
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Death comes to all of those who oppose me.

Violating the ToS and violating the made up temple rules are two different things. Thus should be handled differently. I like most of Kiki's ideas. Being on of the most liberal members in the temple still feel that if someone is upset they can leave that topic alone, but if the joke is carried on to other topics then there is a more serious problem.

I think user responsibly should be preached. For example, I feel that the "bullied" user should PM the "bully" about the situation and explain to them why they are upset. If the two of them cannot come together than there's a more serious problem. Furthermore, if the owner of the topic is getting upset he/she does has the right to close it. They should exercise that right more. I will continue to preach that people shouldn't be oversensitive, and realize it's an internet forum. It's not worth getting that upset over, nor is 99.9 percent of the stuff we talk about here at the temple that important.
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Saturos
Sep 28 2011, 03:05 PM
And I don't think our former mods should be held to a higher level of accountability: they are just normal members now.
They better [radio edit]ing not.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Ian889
Sep 28 2011, 04:39 PM
Violating the ToS and violating the made up temple rules are two different things. Thus should be handled differently. I like most of Kiki's ideas. Being on of the most liberal members in the temple still feel that if someone is upset they can leave that topic alone, but if the joke is carried on to other topics then there is a more serious problem.

I think user responsibly should be preached. For example, I feel that the "bullied" user should PM the "bully" about the situation and explain to them why they are upset. If the two of them cannot come together than there's a more serious problem. Furthermore, if the owner of the topic is getting upset he/she does has the right to close it. They should exercise that right more. I will continue to preach that people shouldn't be oversensitive, and realize it's an internet forum. It's not worth getting that upset over, nor is 99.9 percent of the stuff we talk about here at the temple that important.
Hahaha, Jacob.

That being said, I agree 100% with Ian, here. This is the absolute best way to resolve conflict, and I've been telling people to reach out to people they have a problem with and irony things out. More often than not, it's just a case of miscommunication - and it's a lot harder to be troll-y to someone when you've had genuine conversation with them. Dispelling the monkeysphere, etc.
Feeling like you have to rely on the staff should be a last-ditch thing, and furthermore makes people feel like they have no power in and of themselves. A lot of the time, you can fix much more lasting change by contacting the other member yourself, and you don't have to put up with the power dynamic of the staff. I think that's a practice we have moved away from far too much here.

Thanks, Ian. Though ironically, your definition of liberal there is conservative for me: small government, and individual responsibility.
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Ian889
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Death comes to all of those who oppose me.

Liberal in the more traditional sense. Meaning to take liberty, not in the American/ Western world political system sense. I use it in the traditional sense because I know a good contingency of this temple aren't from America or the western world.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Ah, fair enough! That does make sense.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

I would love for people to resolve the issues on their own.

The problem then comes when you have users report things that were not inflammatory toward them, but rather toward another member. Which I think we get more often than reports from the actual target (makes sense since there are more non-targets than targets usually) If the people involved are working this out privately on their own, we have no way of knowing.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Quote:
 
The problem then comes when you have users report things that were not inflammatory toward them, but toward another member. Which I think we get more often than reports from the actual target (makes sense since there are more non-targets than targets usually)


I think we should also stop dealing with these as much, because then you have people playing forum police with reports, where it might not even have been offensive to the person involved.
That being said, even in those cases, the person who's offended could still PM the offending party.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

Then there's also the viewpoint that, you know, I care about these people who have become my friends over the past five years, and something someone says that is offensive to one of these people is also offensive to me. What do we do then?
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