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Regarding the Staff's Handling of Ulta's Topic; and Bowse's subsequent suspension
Topic Started: Sep 27 2011, 02:48 AM (3,489 Views)
Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

I'd like to lay out a number of grievances here. I feel like a needlessly harsh punishment has been passed on a member here, and that this punishment was carried out with the input of too few staff. Let me lay out the timeline here, with commentary afterwards.

1) Ulta made a topic asking people to stop making fun of him for being an orange. A reasonably-made request.
2) People react. Some say "grow up, Ulta," others say "okay, sorry! ^_^" The Temple acts like the Temple, in short.
3) Bowse claims that Ulta's request is invalid, and that the Temple will be the Temple. Bowse's claim may or may not be legitimate.
4) Bowse is warned informally.
5) Bowse trolls. This is one of the very few times that I have seen Bowse troll. Bowse has been a member for years without any major incidents.
6) Bowse is warned and suspended without having any of his posts edited beforehand. Post preview is skipped. This is technically by the books, but the harshest possible sentence given the circumstances.
7) Adnarel voices concern over events 4-6 in Ulta's topic and uses the S-Box as a means to get his message out quicker.
8) Adnarel receives personal attacks from staff and is asked "u mad?" without any meaningful commentary on events 4-6.
9) Adnarel talks to staffer on MSN and learns that only half the active staff team voted on what to do with Bowse before he was suspended.
10) Adnarel learns that 1 of the 3 staff involved in the suspension of Bowse was more or less ambivalent. In essence, 33% of the staff chose to suspend a member, and the rest didn't get a say.
11) Adnarel talks to a staffer involved in the decision who makes claims that Ulta is right, that the board is too sexual anyway and that Bowse had it coming. Bowse was not a part of the sexualization of the board. Bowse has now become a scapegoat.


This really does not sit well with me at all. 3 out of 6 active staffers chose to suspend a member with a mostly clean record previously (his only real warn was more than a year old - considered to be "expired" by our board standards), and 1 of those 3 involved in the suspension did not have strong feelings either way. Furthermore, the staffer with whom I spoke on MSN positively identified him/herself as a staffer who condemned Bowse to suspension. This staffer offered this justification for suspending Bowse:

"I'm personally a little tired of how things are progressing on the board, being far more sexual then I'd like, and this topic was addressing that."

Bowse has had very little to do with bringing in a more sexual culture to the Temple. Claiming that he did to justify a harsh punishment (but still within legal limits!) is irresponsible execution of justice.

I anticipate a response from the staff saying "Bowse's punishment is exactly by the books. Please be quiet, Adnarel." I would argue that a few steps in the justice process were skipped. It is customary for staffers to edit out offensive material in a user's post and leave behind a warning. This was not done. Additionally, in similar situations in the past, users have had post preview enforced on them. That practice was not adopted in this situation. When asked why not, a staffer replied that post preview and suspension are basically the same thing, which is a claim that can be challenged with ease.

...

My issue isn't with Bowse's actions. He trolled, and he got punished. That's as it should be. However, I feel that this was a miscarriage of justice - that Bowse's punishment was not proportional to his offense and history as a member. If that weren't enough, he was suspended by a small plurality of staffers, one of which offered weak justification of the action upon being asked about it, and another of which did not have strong feelings either way concerning Bowse's actions. I also know for a fact that Bowse appealed his suspension with a staffer who was involved in the punishment. The staffer in question was the ambivalent-leaning one, who is motivated by principles of objectivity far more than any other staffer on the team. This ambivalent staffer admitted weakness in the decision-making process which led up to the suspension.

As I said, this isn't about getting Bowse unsuspended (it was only 24 hours after all). It's about how the process leading to Bowse's punishment is riddled with shortcomings. I'd like to see punishment algorithms revised in the aftermath of this event, generally favoring a more gentle slope to suspension than what we observed tonight.

Also, when a member asks for clarification on staff rulings, it is not appropriate for staff to mock the member. May we standardize this, please?

Thanks for taking the time to read. Despite an ugly situation taking place, we can use it to better the Temple and its rulebook.
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Super Slash


I agree that the punishment was far too harsh. I didn't see his trolling, but going by hearsay, it wasn't warranted at all. Let's not turn this place into GameFAQs.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

I managed to drop by on hiatus when this report was filed, and a couple of things alerted me that something was taking place. And yeah, I really don't agree with this action at all. .___.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

Sadly, it is an unfortunate thing here that the staff does very little to persistent, stubborn trolls until much damage has already been done. They resist doing the appropriate thing so much that it finally spills over to someone who does a smaller offense.
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Wally Caine
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Living Embodiment of Wall Street

Not in an attempt to stir up drama, but as far as I know from talking to him at the time, he was not warned informally. Or at least not in a way that he felt was an informal warning.
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Peakay
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me IRL

Ever since I've played LoL, I have had the chance to get to know Bowse more, and I need to say, he's changed from when I first started talking to him, like, a lot. He was more patient back then, now he cannot stand being with stubborn people and gets frustrated easily. :U
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LSunnyC
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The Fallen Duchess

I, admittedly, don't know Bowse very well, but the problem I have with the OP's argument is that he notion of him trolling is not surprising to me. I have a very hard time reading when Bowse is joking versus trolling, to the point where I read it like the latter more often.

I can agree that steps were missed, so that OP is still valid to me. I just can't bring myself to agree with the sentiment because there have been numerous times where I've been on the board and gone "Is he serious? Wow, I don't like that." but haven't reported or anything like because I haven't been sure of what was going on.

Edited out two lines because when I re-read they sounded way different from what I meant. Duuurrr...
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Peytral
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peytral pls

I lol'd at Bowse's posts.
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

Gilly-chan
Sep 27 2011, 09:06 AM
I, admittedly, don't know Bowse very well, but the problem I have with the OP's argument is that he notion of him trolling is not surprising to me. I have a very hard time reading when Bowse is joking versus trolling, to the point where I read it like the latter more often.

I can agree that steps were missed, so that OP is still valid to me. I just can't bring myself to agree with the sentiment because there have been numerous times where I've been on the board and gone "Is he serious? Wow, I don't like that." but haven't reported or anything like because I haven't been sure of what was going on.
This, massively. I don't want to turn this into a thread about Bowse's character, but it's incredibly difficult to tell when he is joking and when he is trolling because he treats the two things as the same thing. For instance, I once on Skype got told by him that no one wants me around Temple and I wouldn't be missed if I was to leave. Now, the way he said this wasn't outright mean or joking, but that just meant I still couldn't tell if he was joking or being malicious towards me. And well, that's not exactly a thing to instantly burst into laughter about if it was a joke. :U

I think the punishment was too strict and on the wrong grounds; it needed more reviewing before a conclusion was reached. But I also think Bowse should share some of the blame for his general attitude. Can you really protest that you weren't trolling in one thread when you act that way in many others? The reason I think you missed it Adnarel, is because you either don't look at a huge amount of topics, or go on Skype, which is where I see a lot of Bowse's behaviour. :U He's far too vague in his posts about how he acts and thinks everyone should instantly determine how he behaves. I remember Were asked him in the Sbox about one time he was trolling the staff, and Bowse replied "Uh isn't it obvious I'm joking?" My thought at that was pretty much; "Um, no, it isn't."
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Hinoa
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Enabling Terrible Ideas since 2012

And now for something completely different: quoting the rules verbatim and highlighting appropriate parts!
Quote:
 
Who Mods the Mods? - The Staff and You: A Guide for Row Row Fighting the Powah

What to do when you have a problem with the staff

So you've been unfairly moderated. You know that you shouldn't have to take this kind of treatment. But how do you get justice?

1. Do not confront the staffer in public. This is likely to create drama and also further opportunities for you and others to break the rules.

2. PM the staffer in question or otherwise contact them privately. Explain your grievance or ask your questin. Try to come to an understanding person-to-person.

3. If this fails to produce understanding, and you still believe that the staffer has wronged you or otherwise abused his or her position, please submit a complaint to the staff. You are asked to do so in the following manner: Use the multi-PM function to PM the admin group, or send it to the users Saturos, Dracobolt, Ryukenshin, Poui, and GSAlex.

4. The admins will take your complaint and discuss it with the staff as a whole. If they decide that the staffer in question was acting outside the bounds of his or her authority, he or she will be subjected to probation and punishment. If they decide that the staffer was doing his or her job, no action will be taken against either party. The member will be contacted with the decision when the staff is done deliberating.

Notes on Staff Conduct

All staff members are required to provide an explanation when they take serious action or when the reasoning behind their action may not be readily apparent. Ideally, they should provide explanations all of the time, but if it's something minor or extremely obvious, they are not obligated to do so unless a member PMs them a request for clarification. Asking a staffer their reasons should not be done in public, lest it cause wank.

• Joke warnings are no longer allowed, except on April Fool's Day and Draco's birthday. All warnings from these days will be removed no later than 24 hours after the conclusion of the holiday on which they were given, and all will be distinguishable as jokes in some way. Joke moderations, such as editing members' posts, are not to occur outside of Pointless Gibberish topics, and even then only in, ahah, moderation.


We now return to our regularly scheduled topic of discussion.
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Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

I'd like to restate that Bowse himself has to do very little with my problem with the situation. To recap, I disliked:

1) The punishment versus the offense
2) The number of people that decided on a severe punishment
3) The response I got from staff when I both privately and publicly asked for clarification and more information

No matter what Bowse is/isn't or did/didn't do, the justice system failed last night, and I want to make sure it never happens again like that.
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Peytral
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peytral pls

Phoenix7
Sep 27 2011, 09:16 AM
For instance, I once on Skype got told by him that no one wants me around Temple and I wouldn't be missed if I was to leave. Now, the way he said this wasn't outright mean or joking, but that just meant I still couldn't tell if he was joking or being malicious towards me.
I don't think it's a good example if the quote in question is obviously a joke. I don't think he'd say that and mean ill will towards you unless he absolutely hated you as a person. And if he did, he wouldn't say so in such a distasteful manner.

Some people need to stop taking every little thing so seriously, and others need to stop expecting that others won't take them seriously. Or something.

tl;dr entire Temple is BABIES

(also I'm aware this post is pretty much off-topic but yeah)
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

I never saw past step 4 or so, but assuming this is a reasonably objective overview of events, I agree completely. Especially so considering there are other members who are repeat offenders and have never gotten worse than post preview. If the staff wants to stick by this decision, I can understand that, but let's have some internal consistency.
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Peytral
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peytral pls

herp derp disregard my response to Peo.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Also, having now read the bits of the thread in question that I missed, Hinoa is correct in saying that Adnarel's decision to point it out in public was a Bad Idea©. I still agree with what he's saying, though.
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Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

For clarification purposes, I posted in the topic first, got blown off, and then decided to take it to MSN after that. After talking on MSN to a staffer, reviewing transcripts of certain MSN/Skype conversations, and rereading Ulta's topic, I decided to make this thread.
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Artemis
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Plus Ultra

Bowse's character has nothing to do with the issue, as I see it. It has to do with the response to a problem, more than anything personal; discussing his attitude, whatever it may be, is unlikely to solve anything.

That said, I agree with Adnarel. It seems to have been a precipitated action, and I was quite surprised at it.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

And regarding Hinoa's quoting of the Rules: we hope to change those in the near future, because too many people are following the letter of the law, rather than the spirit of the law. In this case, there is absolutely nothing wrong with frank and open discussion about how we govern our forum, and how things should be dealt with. Also, there may be a bit of a perceived power imbalance between one member and one staffer, on a one vs. one conversation, and it's much easier to hold people accountable for their words when they are vetted by a wide group, ie. the whole forum. Not only that, I would rather have everyone's voices participating, but that's just me.

EDIT: Also! There's been a feeling sometimes that the staff circles are closed and insular, and that normal members don't feel like their voices are being heard. That being said, sometimes privacy and confidentiality are definitely useful, which is why I prefer to go on a case-by-case basis, rather than hard and fast rules that apply to everything without discrimination.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

For the record, I hate the phrase U mad anymore, so if you think my use of it in "u mad hominem" was in taunting you, it was not. Rather it was an attempt to diffuse the situation (it was like 3 in the morning and I thought it would be funny at the time since they share a syllable) Especially since I thought you were already making a joke with the phrase before that.
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Hisui
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Seccy "no fun allowed" Secundum

I don't really have anything to add to this topic [as everything I would have said has already been said], but I agree with Adnarel, and also:
Adnarel Respect = +10.
Saturos-What do you mean by the letter/spirit of the law?
[I've heard that phrase before, but I've never really got my head round it]
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