Madoka Magica

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Madoka Magica
Tweet Topic Started: Mar 25 2011, 01:44 PM (13,888 Views)
Lachesis	May 19 2011, 11:53 AM Post #61
What are birds? Posts: 12,845 Group: Jupiter Clan Member #214 Joined: July 5, 2007 Gender: [NO_GENDER] Blog: The Chamber of Extinction Country: #0# Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE	Well that was interesting. Kyubei was disappointing, though. The music wasn't~



Phoenix7	May 20 2011, 03:47 PM Post #62
Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~ Posts: 30,101 Group: Merc-Yuri Clan Member #196 Joined: May 29, 2007 Gender: #225# Blog: #225# Country: #225# True Name: Peo!~	Having just marathon'd this series, I'm going to post my thoughts about it and pray no one is too offended. This anime really didn't hook me like other ones did. Madoka, to put it simply, tries too hard to stand out. It comes off as highly pretentious and the art style doesn't help this one bit. The only character I genuinely like a lot is Homura; I felt she was a really good character stuck in an anime where she didn't belong. And that says something, because usually I'm not a fan of her character type. But with 12 episodes, I accept you can't make every character perfect or fleshed out; Sakaya was good, Kyoko was decent, but Mami felt rather meh. At least her final scenes gave her some substance as a character. I also agree Kyuubei was disappointing. He isn't really the troll many made him out to be; just a jerk who has an actual reason (albeit suckish one) for being a jerk. He's no Hazama, who does stuff for the pure lulz. Spoiler: click to toggle And of course, Madoka is empty as heck, treated like an RPG item that holds ultimate power in the second half, and ends up becoming god. Are you serious? She barely contributes anything to the anime and becomes creator of all. I would have tolerated it if she became god to all magical girls, but instead, she becomes an almighty being. The whole plot loop with her and Homura could have been great, if they had made Madoka an interesting character. Instead, it came off as dull. =/ Especially since it's the reason why she becomes god, without any training or anything. Let me make this clear; *I don't find Madoka awful or terribad.* I find it decent. It's animation, and music for one, are truly superb. I just dislike how overrated it is. People praise it for it's darkness and witches and all that, but that's just it's outer shell, the book of the cover. When you get into the heart of Madoka, it is your average generic Magical Girl Anime that temporarily uses darkness and admittedly clever but still same-old 'I just want to be normal' as plot devices in the middle to make you forget this. I don't agree with the masses who claim 'it's dark so it's clearly unique!', and that it 'doesn't have any stereotypical features of anime, so non-anime lovers will love it!'. It has an air of moe/fanservice that never leaves even when it gets serious (Madoka transforms by pressing her boobs into a naked girl, Kyoko's own flashing during hers, Mami summons weapons out of her skirt, Les Yay that goes nowhere because that would detract from the 'darkness', there's constant pretty glitter and fairy tale fluffy outfits for the girls and with very cutesy music at times.) I don't have a problem with fanservice/moe, it's just many people state there's none in Madoka, which they go onto say makes it unique as a Magical Girl anime, and it's like '...Yes there is, so it's still generic.' The friendship parts could have been better so they didn't feel as if they wouldn't have been out of place in Kingdom Hearts, and it's use of blood ocasionally feels like sprinkling over the fact that it's a Magical Girl Anime to hide that fact. Spoiler: click to toggle Mami's death in particular falls under this. All it does is rein-enforce the 'this magical girl anime is dark so it's unique' mindset the directors had, and I couldn't help but find Madoka's reaction to be, surprising as it may sound, slightly underwhelming. She just cries for a bit, then swiftly moves on. Though TBH that may be because I've seen 'Break the Cutie' performed miles better than it was here, so I wasn't as impressed by it. The art style really didn't work, either. You don't combine Dark Magical Girl with moeness/cuteness and expect them to embrace each other. Madoka's moe art style is a constant reminder of it's generic magical girlness; that's the essence of the show, not the darkness. If they had fixed the transformations to fit what they were going for as a whole instead of cute fanservice, it would have turned out MUCH better. The ending just throws the past 12 episodes aside and goes 'MAGICAL GIRL ANIME~' when all it spent doing was blatantly trying to prove that it wasn't like other Magical Girl Animes. Overall, I found Madoka to be okay, but I can't deny I was disappointed from everything I was told about it. I could tell as I watched it that this anime wasn't really my type despite all the fuss about it; it just didn't strike a cord with me like some of my other favourites did. =/



Peytral	May 20 2011, 03:50 PM Post #63
peytral pls Posts: 15,452 Group: Sol Clan Member #459 Joined: March 18, 2009 Gender: Miserable pile of secrets Blog: Ab Animo Pario Country: #0# True Name: Peytral Aznable	ITT: Peo becomes the only person I've seen who didn't find this anime great.



Poui	May 20 2011, 04:01 PM Post #64
Posts: 13,255 Group: Coatlicue Member #203 Joined: June 12, 2007 Gender: Female Country: #215# Theme Song: https://tinyurl.com/q7785ct	I agree with him, though. o: The difference is that its being a normal magical girl series under all the ~grimdark~ added to its charm for me, but that's a matter of personal taste.



The Sin Thesis	May 20 2011, 04:22 PM Post #65
Posts: 3,397 Group: Jupiter Clan Member #314 Joined: March 9, 2008 Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0la5DBtOVNI	I think that having marathon'd the series after everyone has told you about it made you miss the point, Peo. The anime starts out with the 'magical girl' generic feel on purpose, and then uses that as a foil to the darkness in it. It hadn't quite billed itself as a 'dark' anime; the fact that it turned so was a surprise (but less so for people who knew each individual creative force behind it), not something to be expected. The 'expectation' of such was something that would come to people watching the anime after people had told them about it. Also, the naked girl in Madoka's transformation appears to be another, older Madoka. I kinda think that's significant in a non-fanservicey way.



Gilgamesh	May 20 2011, 04:39 PM Post #66
solbowz Aurarius Posts: 33,599 Group: Venus Clan Member #380 Joined: October 3, 2008 Gender: King of Heroes Blog: Shattered Symbosis Country: #226# True Name: Space Boyd Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h6lFNXzC1g	Quote: This anime really didn't hook me like other ones did. Madoka, to put it simply, tries too hard to stand out. It comes off as highly pretentious and the art style doesn't help this one bit. The only character I genuinely like a lot is Homura; I felt she was a really good character stuck in an anime where she didn't belong. And that says something, because usually I'm not a fan of her character type. But with 12 episodes, I accept you can't make every character perfect or fleshed out; Sakaya was good, Kyoko was decent, but Mami felt rather meh. At least her final scenes gave her some substance as a character. I also agree Kyuubei was disappointing. He isn't really the troll many made him out to be; just a jerk who has an actual reason (albeit suckish one) for being a jerk. He's no Hazama, who does stuff for the pure lulz. That seemed to be the point with Mami, she's the mentor character, they always lose importance once they're no longer needed; notice how fast she "exited" every scene in episode 10. And with QB, it's more that his magnificent bastardry is on par with such great trolls as Hazama. As for the reasons? Yeah, for the sake of trolliness, of course Hazama's better. You should probably actually play the games though; I don't mean this offensively, especially since I've been feeding you a lot of it, but I don't think it's usually fair to judge one thing as inferior to something that you haven't seen firsthand (your opinion won't change though, I'm just saying). As for the trying to stand out thing, yeah, the director's entire intent was to do something different in the current age of moe anime rehashes. I will admit that I can't accurately tell you objectively whether or not it was trying hard to "stand out," given that Fate/Zero, the work that was the entire reason why the writer was a part of this project, had such things as on screen torture of young children. I wasn't surprised with Madoka since I already knew what the writer was capable of. A lot of people that did frankly expected an "everybody's going to die" ending as soon as we saw "Gen Urobuchi" attached to it. Quote: Spoiler: click to toggle And of course, Madoka is empty as heck, treated like an RPG item that holds ultimate power in the second half, and ends up becoming god. Are you serious? She barely contributes anything to the anime and becomes creator of all. I would have tolerated it if she became god to all magical girls, but instead, she becomes an almighty being. The whole plot loop with her and Homura could have been great, if they had made Madoka an interesting character. Instead, it came off as dull. =/ Especially since it's the reason why she becomes god, without any training or anything. Spoiler: click to toggle ...Madoka being lame was the entire point; Homura is literally stifling Madoka's character development with her actions. Original!Madoka was able to show what she was made of when she became a magical girl, as was current Madoka. The difference? 12 episodes later. Considering that wishes are literally a Dues Ex Machina though, complaining about lack of training is a bit silly. However, I hate the ending, I will not try to defend it. Hate hate hate hate hate HATE. Quote: Let me make this clear; I don't find Madoka awful or terribad. I find it decent. It's animation, and music for one, are truly superb. I just dislike how overrated it is. People praise it for it's darkness and witches and all that, but that's just it's outer shell, the book of the cover. When you get into the heart of Madoka, it is your average generic Magical Girl Anime that temporarily uses darkness and admittedly clever but still same-old 'I just want to be normal' as plot devices in the middle to make you forget this. I don't agree with the masses who claim 'it's dark so it's clearly unique!', and that it 'doesn't have any stereotypical features of anime, so non-anime lovers will love it!'. It has an air of moe/fanservice that never leaves even when it gets serious (Madoka transforms by pressing her boobs into a naked girl, Kyoko's own flashing during hers, Mami summons weapons out of her skirt, Les Yay that goes nowhere because that would detract from the 'darkness', there's constant pretty glitter and fairy tale fluffy outfits for the girls and with very cutesy music at times.) I don't have a problem with fanservice/moe, it's just many people state there's none in Madoka, which they go onto say makes it unique as a Magical Girl anime, and it's like '...Yes there is, so it's still generic.' ...Uh, what? Being a magical girl sucks was certainly an important plot point, but who wanted to be "normal"? Madoka spent the entire series wanting to be special, that's the exact opposite. It's no less common, but still. The opening doesn't count, both because it's just the opening and it was made without the writer's input, thus it literally has nothing to do with the story. As for the art style, yes, the characters are cute, but most of us have trouble focusing on that after episode 3. And if you still can, that's still only the character designs. Nothing else about the anime is cute at all. Even counting that stuff, no, it's not generic, Kyouko and Homura had exactly two "nude" transformation sequences that last all of ten seconds. Most anime have entire episodes focusing on fanservice (one word: beach episodes). As for Mami and her weapons, she summons them out of hammerspace without the use of a portal. It's either gotta come out of the hat or the skirt. She did both. Considering that there were no panty shots with that, I don't see how that could be fanservice except to the most perverted types, and those people would find fanservice in the fact that a girl was simply on screen. The point is, nobody that hates fanservice is going to be turned off by Madoka just because of those few moments, it's way too infrequent. Granted, if you're a yuri fan, then yup, fanservice everywhere, but shippers are just like that. Look at THIS fandom. To be fair to it though, Sayaka spent the entire series having a crush on a boy, even if Kyouko was blatant lesbian, of course it wouldn't go anywhere. Can't really defend Homura though, yeah. As for the contrast with the outfits and transformations, they're supposed to fit the personality of the girl (compare Mami's cutesy hops in her transformation compared to Kyouko's first transformation sequence). Although I guess it's just a matter of taste as to whether you think they should've fit the mood or the character. Not sure why somebody would say that it would appeal to non anime fans though. Not a typical magical girl series =/= nothing like any anime. Quote: The friendship parts could have been better so they didn't feel as if they wouldn't have been out of place in Kingdom Hearts, and it's use of blood ocasionally feels like sprinkling over the fact that it's a Magical Girl Anime to hide that fact. Spoiler: click to toggle Mami's death in particular falls under this. All it does is rein-enforce the 'this magical girl anime is dark so it's unique' mindset the directors had, and I couldn't help but find Madoka's reaction to be, surprising as it may sound, slightly underwhelming. She just cries for a bit, then swiftly moves on. Though TBH that may be because I've seen 'Break the Cutie' performed miles better than it was here, so I wasn't as impressed by it. A lot of people seem to hate Madoka, so I guess I can't say your thoughts on friendship have no basis. As for episode 3, the entire point was shock value, hence why nothing like it ever gets that bad again. So yeah, you aren't wrong there. Seriously though, you found Madoka's reaction underwhelming? I thought she acted very realistically. It just sounds like you have high standards with this kind of thing. Because my thoughts as of episode 4 was wondering why Sayaka didn't take it harder. Quote: The art style really didn't work, either. You don't combine Dark Magical Girl with moeness/cuteness and expect them to embrace each other. Madoka's moe art style is a constant reminder of it's generic magical girlness; that's the essence of the show, not the darkness. If they had fixed the transformations to fit what they were going for as a whole instead of cute fanservice, it would have turned out MUCH better. The ending just throws the past 12 episodes aside and goes 'MAGICAL GIRL ANIME~' when all it spent doing was blatantly trying to prove that it wasn't like other Magical Girl Animes. Matter of taste, but I still don't see how you can call episodes 3-11 generic. Note that I don't mean "matter of taste" to mean "whelp that's just your silly inferior opinion." I mean it as "yeah, that's a legitimate complaint". Quote: Overall, I found Madoka to be okay, but I can't deny I was disappointed from everything I was told about it. I could tell as I watched it that this anime wasn't really my type despite all the fuss about it; it just didn't strike a cord with me like some of my other favourites did. =/ Basically what Ninja said. This is one of those things that after being told about it, doesn't mean much. ~~Totally don't know what kind of moron would've told you so much to do that to you, though. What a vile fiend he must've been.~~ Also this post isn't long because I feel like I needed to "attack" your views or anything, I just liked being able to discuss it, so relax, you seem a bit on edge with your "I don't mean to offend anyone" thing.



Admiral Miral	May 20 2011, 05:00 PM Post #67
The Light of Hope Posts: 3,126 Group: Venus Clan Member #636 Joined: June 15, 2010 Gender: Wafu! Country: #226# True Name: Miral	Quote: Mami summons weapons out of her skirt How exactly is this fanservice? Quote: Les Yay that goes nowhere because that would detract from the 'darkness' I wasn't aware lesbianism (or implied amounts of it) made a story any less dark. I don't see how the inclusion of the possibility of romance between two females makes a story any less serious or impacting. From the sounds of things, you watched the anime with the mindset of "People like this so I am going to whine and complain about every aspect of it." You use general terms such as "they" and "many people" so that you can rebut claims that don't actually exist. Who is they? Who are the many people? You're countering points that from what I can tell haven't actually been presented just so that you can create the illusion that you're pressing an opposing argument. And I think you're missing the entire point. You constantly criticize it from being moe, which detracts from the grimdark. And you state that the grimdark detracts from the moe. The creature clearly wanted it to be both. He wanted it to appear to be moe on the outside and have overt dark overtones, awhile at the same time have a combination of moe and grimdark in the inner layers of the story. As for your statements over how the show tries so hard to be different...umm, how? The show is clearly a magical girl show. It was intended to be a magical girl show. It always was a magical girl show. How was it "blatantly trying to prove that it wasn't like other Magical Girl Animes?" The show clearly made an effort to make it that it was like other magical girl shows!



Phoenix7	May 20 2011, 05:48 PM Post #68
Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~ Posts: 30,101 Group: Merc-Yuri Clan Member #196 Joined: May 29, 2007 Gender: #225# Blog: #225# Country: #225# True Name: Peo!~	I just get worry because lots of people here like Madoka, and I didn't want to tread on anyone's toes with my opinion. XD And I probably could have picked a better example than Hazama; he was the first one that came to me. Sorry. ^_^;; I found Mami meh due to her character; you can create mentors and make them interesting at the same time. Then again, she was chilled, so maybe there's a good reason why she didn't stand out past her fighting. But she was just there to teach Sakaya and Madoka and then that was that, bye bye. As for 'being normal', Sayaka was the one that really stuck to me that wanted to be normal, so she could be with the guy she loved. This came quick but very noticible, so maybe I got hung up on it. Spoiler: click to toggle And if my mentor/friend had died, I would have done a little more then cry, act solemn, and move on like Madoka did. There was very little progression. Again, it's 12 episodes, so of course they don't have time to drown her in mourning. I just found the pace of her reaction unrealistic. Also, say what you will, but seeing how Sayaka struggled with fighting despite having a wish, and Madoka being A* fighter, was really 'lolwat' to me. Especially since the justification was just Homura giving Madoka a lot of power over time. I felt they could have gone a better route with it, instead. Most people might have trouble, but to me the cuteness just felt out of place with all the darkness which they were using to stand out. I didn't really feel the anime got engaging till about episode seven, which the whole darkness theme got really going. Spoiler: click to toggle Maybe because it was spoilt for me, but Mami's death wasn't that shocking nor a real plot turner for me. It's pretty 'wow', but I wasn't stunned. I felt more like 'Is that it?'. The scene in Spirited Away where Haku in Dragon Form is bleeding felt more horrific then that. Again, maybe because I already knew the dark nature of the anime, I accept that point. I'd also argue against beach episodes just being fanservice; yes some animes use them as such but there aren't many ways to get the cast together all at once, and often it can be used as plot points. I disagree the outfits also fitted the characters...in some cases. Sayaka's looked like a maid, and she was being spunky. I guess it fits if you consider her being like a sort of servant to her crush. Quote: How exactly is this fanservice? Was it really nessecary to have it happen? Mami could have pulled them out of the air (hammerspace, and it wouldn't have been hard to justify in this anime) but instead they come out of her skirt. Perhaps I'm just being overcritical, but my reaction was essentially 'really?' for an anime that supposedly had no pointless suggestiveness or fanservice. It went against what I told, so that irked me perhaps a little more than it should have. Again, I don't have an issue with fanservice. XD Quote: I wasn't aware lesbianism (or implied amounts of it) made a story any less dark. I don't see how the inclusion of the possibility of romance between two females makes a story any less serious or impacting. Simply because if they had gone with it, Madoka would have had a moment of cheerfulness amongst it's darkness, and they were constantly attempting to keep it serious. Of course, they could have used this as a plot device for more sadness, but it could have come off as more fanservice. I believe Miral, that while Madoka was intended to be both, it was not a healthy combination in my eyes. Or rather, it was done unhealthly. The plot goes from 'magical girl' to 'darkness' to 'magical girl' once more, and abruptly. Neither really complimented each other, I felt apart from that these girls felt innocent due to the art style, and to have all this happen to them was horrific. That's the only reason I felt they combined moe with darkness. Again, there are better ways to make Dark Magical Girl work. The 'Nakama' aspect was good; keep that. However, they really need to re-work the cuteness factor, or just get rid of it. The director could have wanted a pink elephant riding a unicycle in there if he wanted; the point is that it does not work, at least in my opinion. Also, I apologize if I appear to have the stance of 'I'm going to whine because other people love it'; that is not my intent at all. I am merely going off praise and terms of what I have seen, not just off of Temple, but other forums/Youtube comments and such. However, I stand by my opinion that it was attempting to stand out from other magical girls with all the darkness. If Madoka didn't have the darkness factor, how many people would have actually watched it? It would have, on the surface, appeared like any regular magical girl anime. People didn't really get into the series until Spoiler: click to toggle Mami's death because that was a shocking moment for an anime that appeared all sugar and spice and everything nice, and it appeared unique. It then goes on to include moments of shock horror, quite a bit of blood, Spoiler: click to toggle Sayaka's freak out while killing a witch What Magical Girl Anime behaves like this? None that I'm certainly aware of. You are more versed in anime than me Miral, so perhaps you know other animes like this. But this was the first I had ever seen of a MG anime that was much more serious. I mean, how does Madoka measure up to Tokyo Mew Mew? Or Cardcaptors? They are a lot more light-hearted than Madoka. In attempting to stand out by being darker and edgier, Madoka goes overboard at points, trying to break free from the MG genre and appear different. Yet the moeness betrays this. Again, if they had made the artstyle less cute, it would have worked, but I don't think it did as it was. Again, that's just my view. But perhaps you guys are right in that, being told these things, it didn't have the desired effect upon me. I may have set my expectations too high for Madoka. :<



Gilgamesh	May 20 2011, 06:10 PM Post #69
solbowz Aurarius Posts: 33,599 Group: Venus Clan Member #380 Joined: October 3, 2008 Gender: King of Heroes Blog: Shattered Symbosis Country: #226# True Name: Space Boyd Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h6lFNXzC1g	Quote: As for 'being normal', Sayaka was the one that really stuck to me that wanted to be normal, so she could be with the guy she loved. This came quick but very noticible, so maybe I got hung up on it. Spoiler: click to toggle And if my mentor/friend had died, I would have done a little more then cry, act solemn, and move on like Madoka did. There was very little progression. Again, it's 12 episodes, so of course they don't have time to drown her in mourning. I just found the pace of her reaction unrealistic. Also, say what you will, but seeing how Sayaka struggled with fighting despite having a wish, and Madoka being A* fighter, was really 'lolwat' to me. Especially since the justification was just Homura giving Madoka a lot of power over time. I felt they could have gone a better route with it, instead. Eh, Sayaka wanted to be a "superhero" and defend justice and whatnot, and she never seemed to regret that, rather Spoiler: click to toggle she regretted that she couldn't live up to that ideal, and how she, for instance, felt herself wishing she'd let Hitomi die and hated herself for it. Plus, she DID want to become a magical girl, she just DIDN'T want to become a lich. Because of that, to me it just felt more like her arc was focusing on having to deal with her decision and the consequences she got for not following Mami's advice about wishes. Also, they didn't even know Mami that long. She was a friend and a mentor, but they weren't friends for that long. Finally, how powerful the magical girl is also heavily depends on her wish. Sayaka's wish was to heal one boy's hand. Madoka's was Spoiler: click to toggle to give reality the finger. Plus, remember, original!Madoka was able to defeat Walpurgis Night (with Mami's help), so even then she was still stronger. Quote: I'd also argue against beach episodes just being fanservice; yes some animes use them as such but there aren't many ways to get the cast together all at once, and often it can be used as plot points. I disagree the outfits also fitted the characters...in some cases. Sayaka's looked like a maid, and she was being spunky. I guess it fits if you consider her being like a sort of servant to her crush. Beach episodes ARE used for fanservice. Not everybody uses them only for that, not by a long shot. Doesn't change the fact that the main purpose is to get the girls wearing less. Also, there are other examples I could've used on how brief nude transformations =/= heavy fanservice, that was just the easiest. Also Sayaka's outfit didn't really look maidish to me, but I think the main point was that she had a cape and capes=heroes. Quote: Quote: How exactly is this fanservice? Was it really nessecary to have it happen? Mami could have pulled them out of the air (hammerspace, and it wouldn't have been hard to justify in this anime) but instead they come out of her skirt. Perhaps I'm just being overcritical, but my reaction was essentially 'really?' for an anime that supposedly had no pointless suggestiveness or fanservice. It went against what I told, so that irked me perhaps a little more than it should have. Again, I don't have an issue with fanservice. XD But that isn't how her power works though! Plus, if she did that, it'd be even more blatant that her power is Gate of Babylon! Plus again, she used her hat just as much. Quote: The director could have wanted a pink elephant riding a unicycle in there if he wanted; the point is that it does not work, at least in my opinion. Of course not, the elephants were green. Quote: Also, I apologize if I appear to have the stance of 'I'm going to whine because other people love it'; that is not my intent at all. I am merely going off praise and terms of what I have seen, not just off of Temple, but other forums/Youtube comments and such. There's your problem right there; if you just read a bunch of Youtube comments or comments from people discussing the series amongst themselves, of course it's going to seem that way. You're looking at places were people that like it come together to express how much they like it. Looking up a fanvid of Madoka isn't going to let you see a lot of hate comments, because the people that hate it wouldn't haven even watched the video. And to expand on one of Miral's comments, remember, it tried to be different from other magical girl anime, but never did it try not to be one.



Moose	May 20 2011, 06:14 PM Post #70
Spirit Posts: 3,846 Group: Clanless Member #463 Joined: March 27, 2009 Country: #225# True Name: Sacra Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtN1YnoL46Q	this topic is become terrible madoka is good but it really isnt that amazing kyuubey isnt supposed to care thats the whole point and the ending is too sudden what with all the 'im god now!!!'



Lachesis	May 20 2011, 07:11 PM Post #71
What are birds? Posts: 12,845 Group: Jupiter Clan Member #214 Joined: July 5, 2007 Gender: [NO_GENDER] Blog: The Chamber of Extinction Country: #0# Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE	I was not aware that a serious discussion that could potentially prompt one to actually think about one's views of the series and discuss its faults, merits, and the various interpretations of some aspects was a terrible discussion topic. Thank you for enlightening us all, Moose. Spoiler: click to toggle More relevantly, I went into Madoka knowing three things. DARK DARKNESS, Mami bites it (thanks for that, Sbox), and Kyubei is doing TERRIBLE THINGS to SAVE THE UNIVERSE. So a bit of knowledge, turning point into darkness already spoiled, but no real knowledge of specifics. As mentioned above, Kyubei was the only thing to really disappoint me. Frankly, I suspect that has more to do with my own preconceptions going in than execution or the quality of writing, and not quite because of how high or low the resulting expectations were. Rather, Kyubei was not... quite the kind of dark aspect I had hoped for. I expected something with at least something of an understanding of why people would view its methods as wrong, and to me something that understands why that is, at least to some extent, and writes it off as necessary (or just plain disagrees) is darker (and more in line with what I was hoping for) than something that writes it off as necessary without really having a clue why people object and not caring... because it is rather fundamentally incapable of understanding or caring. I was hoping for something closer (but not really reaching) malice than simply having a rather alien mindset, but I will not be surprised if I warm up to the idea with time. As for the following, I will say that I watched Madoka in two sittings, interrupted more or less only by sleep and breakfast, so I may or may not have retained and processed enough information for all of this to fully hold up. Personally, I don't terribly object to the ending. Yes, it broke away from the darkness of the rest of the series. Yes, it does kind of come somewhat suddenly. No, I don't think it was badly executed, and there are already indications of what might happen in place. Should memory serve, Kyubei established that Madoka would have god-like powers once she made a contract early in the show. Not just extraordinary powers (which was emphasized several times), but god like. Why is explained later, and you can say what you will about whether you find the reason adequate, but this fact is established very early on. Once you combine that with Madoka's desire to help/save people, and how Kyubei so generously showed her how the magical girls have been suffering through all of human history, I'm not sure what else you might have expected from her wish. Perhaps different details, perhaps something that was different in other ways, but was the actual execution really so surprising? Or terrible? On a less serious note, Homura is one of my favorite characters at this point. Perhaps less expectedly, so is Walpurgisnacht. I suspect this is due primarily to how I've been rewatching Homura's assault on Walpurgisnacht periodically, primarily for the music. Which is actually a source of frustration, because I would really, really like to be able to listen to Walpurgisnacht's battle theme from episode 11 but since the soundtrack isn't even released yet it's nowhere to be found. Not the actual version used. Bluh.



Gilgamesh	May 20 2011, 07:40 PM Post #72
solbowz Aurarius Posts: 33,599 Group: Venus Clan Member #380 Joined: October 3, 2008 Gender: King of Heroes Blog: Shattered Symbosis Country: #226# True Name: Space Boyd Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h6lFNXzC1g	The fight with Walpurgis Night ended too fast for my liking. Granted, there wasn't really much more Homura could do that she couldn't already, but still. That said, I also want the OST to be released SO BADLY. Mami's theme and the music for her fight against Charlotte plus the Walpurgis Night theme shdflsdhfdslf Spoiler: click to toggle My problem with the ending isn't that it came out of nowhere, it's more or less what it entailed. I didn't like the "we'd be in caves without QB" thing, because frankly, history is male centric. In some cases (like with Alexander the Great and his mother, or hell, maybe even Mary and Jesus) then yeah, I could maybe believe that a magical girl influenced things. But I can't believe that for everything with how much of history involves men doing things, I was just all "...really?" I'm not saying women weren't important (the ones shown certainly were), but come on. Maybe I'm just thinking about it too much, since I can accept everything about Saber in Fate/Stay Night. But come on, Anne Frank was a magical girl. I'm supposed to believe that she didn't wish for the end of the Holocaust or Hitler's death why, exactly? Second, "godlike" powers doesn't necessarily mean "destroy the universe then recreate it." Okay yeah that falls under "godlike," but I didn't expect something on that scale. I also dislike the "Madoka doesn't exist anymore" thing in principle, never mind how sad it is. I just don't like that kind of ending where "the hero was gone and they were never seen again." To me, such endings are even more of a slap in the face than "the hero failed and died horribly." The Cosmic Retcon just kind of devalues everything else for me. Like, if I were to rewatch the series, can I genuinely care that, say, Mami died horribly when it's just going to be rewritten and none of it ever happened? Not really. Finally, I just don't see how rewriting the magical girl system has to lead to that. We all knew she was going to do that. None of us expected that she'd become God and rewrite the universe and separate herself from her family and friends for all eternity. I knew point B was going to happen as soon as I saw point A, I just don't like the path that they took to GET to point B.



Lachesis	May 20 2011, 07:50 PM Post #73
What are birds? Posts: 12,845 Group: Jupiter Clan Member #214 Joined: July 5, 2007 Gender: [NO_GENDER] Blog: The Chamber of Extinction Country: #0# Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE	Spoiler: click to toggle I believe the reasoning is more or less that, in order to remove the Witches (the main problem area of the magical girl system as it was), she would have had to remove her own witch, which was an inevitable result of the despair her wish generated to balance the hope and happiness it generated. This means killing the witch she would have become, which means killing her own future. But since she's removing all witches past, present, and future, she can't become the witch she is killing. This basically completely screws up causality. The witch removal could be resolved for all the others because it could be addressed by simply vanishing the girl and replacing witches with demons, but in Madoka's case, removing the witches entirely completely removes her reason to have become a magical girl in the first place. That creates one bump, and combined with the whole "kill your future-not-self" thing with shooting ULTIMATE GRETCHEN in the face, that probably mixes together to screw causality over so much that she can't get worked back in without seriously borking up the new universe. That may or may not be a satisfactory explanation for why it had to work out that way, but that is my understanding of why it did work out that way. For the rest, yeah, I can understand that. A matter of taste, I suppose.



Lachesis	May 24 2011, 10:33 PM Post #74
What are birds? Posts: 12,845 Group: Jupiter Clan Member #214 Joined: July 5, 2007 Gender: [NO_GENDER] Blog: The Chamber of Extinction Country: #0# Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE	TERRIBLE DOUBLE POSTING OH NO The first sound track has been released and has found its way onto YouTube. The first of three, apparently. 13 tracks. Not a clue when the next two albums will be released. As the wiki states, it doesn't contain the opening or ending. It also doesn't contain the Walpurgis Night battle theme from what little I have heard of the songs, but that is hardly surprising and it will probably be a while before whichever soundtrack disc containing it gets released. All this, of course, while YouTube is stubbornly refusing to actually let me load its videos with anything resembling promptness. Also released today was the fifth chapter of the Kazumi manga, but that is slightly less relevant to my interests. Perhaps not to yours.



Gilgamesh	May 24 2011, 10:37 PM Post #75
solbowz Aurarius Posts: 33,599 Group: Venus Clan Member #380 Joined: October 3, 2008 Gender: King of Heroes Blog: Shattered Symbosis Country: #226# True Name: Space Boyd Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h6lFNXzC1g	inb4Sonytakesitdown Also rofl, the name of QB's theme.



Lachesis	May 24 2011, 10:43 PM Post #76
What are birds? Posts: 12,845 Group: Jupiter Clan Member #214 Joined: July 5, 2007 Gender: [NO_GENDER] Blog: The Chamber of Extinction Country: #0# Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq3abPnEEGE	Well of course it's probably getting taken down fairly quickly since it was just released, but the videos will eventually stay up. And then we can rejoice, and listen to yet more wonderfully crafted songs. And then repeat the cycle when the other soundtracks come out.



Gilgamesh	May 24 2011, 10:44 PM Post #77
solbowz Aurarius Posts: 33,599 Group: Venus Clan Member #380 Joined: October 3, 2008 Gender: King of Heroes Blog: Shattered Symbosis Country: #226# True Name: Space Boyd Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h6lFNXzC1g	MAMI'S THEME <3 Er, I mean, yes, indeed.



UltaFlame	Jun 5 2011, 07:11 PM Post #78
Thanks Poui. Posts: 28,951 Group: Venus Clan Member #516 Joined: September 3, 2009 True Name: UltaFlame / V. Terennia	Spoiler: click to toggle I'm just interested in noting that - QB, despite not caring about anything due to lack of anything resembling emotions, is REALLY good at manipulating people. He calls for Madoka when he knows Mami is close enough to save him anyway. He almost gets Madoka to become a Magical Girl at like three separate points. Also, it was clearly evident in Episode 10 when we were seeing all of Homura's past iterations of the same month that Madoka was growing in power. From dying, but succeeding, to wiping out Walpurgis Night in one blow. She seemed about on Mami's level when Homura was first rescued by Madoka and Mami in the original timeline. But more to what I'm talking about. QB is good at manipulating people - and he doesn't offer Homura a contract, it seems, until right at the end, after Madoka dies. Why? Because her wish is to be able to go back in time and save Madoka. I'm pretty sure QB would be aware of what that'd mean in the end, given how it's QB himself who comes up with the theory in the final timeline. So, doesn't that lend itself to a certain series of thoughts? QB lead Homura to going back in time - repeatedly - which served to increase Madoka's strength. He knew - because everytime he told a human in the past - that Homura would turn against him when she found out that Magical Girls turn into Witches and that he was basically the biggest dick ever by turning peoples' bodies into automatons(basically). He was also aware of Madoka's desire to help people. While I'm not saying he knew she'd eventually wind up wishing for the entire universe to be given the biggest gigantic "[radio edit] YOU" ever, he did, with one simple act, begin the series of events that lead to humans in general not having to suffer to stave off Entropy. Also, QB says that "Girls at the age of 12" or whatever are "most effective" - which means that Kyubey could, in theory, make a contract with a male, or even a grown female. The energy generated would just be largely useless. So there's the explanation for QB's "You'd likely still be in caves" - his species might well have gone through a long process to figure out just what is the most effective method. BTW I marathon'd this yesterday and this morning.



The Commander	Jun 6 2011, 04:02 PM Post #79
Kill Thalmor. Posts: 2,873 Group: Merc-Yuri Clan Member #801 Joined: March 30, 2011 Gender: Dude Country: #8#	Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like all the main characters died at the end? If what I've read in this thread is true?



Gilgamesh	Jun 6 2011, 04:56 PM Post #80
solbowz Aurarius Posts: 33,599 Group: Venus Clan Member #380 Joined: October 3, 2008 Gender: King of Heroes Blog: Shattered Symbosis Country: #226# True Name: Space Boyd Theme Song: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1h6lFNXzC1g	UltaFlame http://s9.zetaboards.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/single/?p=8318734&t=7272044 Spoiler: click to toggle I'm just interested in noting that - QB, despite not caring about anything due to lack of anything resembling emotions, is REALLY good at manipulating people. He calls for Madoka when he knows Mami is close enough to save him anyway. He almost gets Madoka to become a Magical Girl at like three separate points. Also, it was clearly evident in Episode 10 when we were seeing all of Homura's past iterations of the same month that Madoka was growing in power. From dying, but succeeding, to wiping out Walpurgis Night in one blow. She seemed about on Mami's level when Homura was first rescued by Madoka and Mami in the original timeline. But more to what I'm talking about. QB is good at manipulating people - and he doesn't offer Homura a contract, it seems, until right at the end, after Madoka dies. Why? Because her wish is to be able to go back in time and save Madoka. I'm pretty sure QB would be aware of what that'd mean in the end, given how it's QB himself who comes up with the theory in the final timeline. So, doesn't that lend itself to a certain series of thoughts? QB lead Homura to going back in time - repeatedly - which served to increase Madoka's strength. He knew - because everytime he told a human in the past - that Homura would turn against him when she found out that Magical Girls turn into Witches and that he was basically the biggest dick ever by turning peoples' bodies into automatons(basically). He was also aware of Madoka's desire to help people. While I'm not saying he knew she'd eventually wind up wishing for the entire universe to be given the biggest gigantic "[radio edit] YOU" ever, he did, with one simple act, begin the series of events that lead to humans in general not having to suffer to stave off Entropy. Also, QB says that "Girls at the age of 12" or whatever are "most effective" - which means that Kyubey could, in theory, make a contract with a male, or even a grown female. The energy generated would just be largely useless. So there's the explanation for QB's "You'd likely still be in caves" - his species might well have gone through a long process to figure out just what is the most effective method. BTW I marathon'd this yesterday and this morning. Indeed, you'll notice how QB tends to appear to form a contract when the girl is at their most vulnerable. He does this in the spin offs too. As for Homura's wish, I don't know, he could also just assume that she would fail. I mean, even in the end, her wish never came true. And that last part is a BRILLIANT piece of Fridge Brilliance and would be awesome if it was true. But yeah, it's quite obvious that QB is good at manipulating people, hence Kyouko's actions in episode 9. Amiti http://s9.zetaboards.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/single/?p=8319031&t=7272044 Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems like all the main characters died at the end? If what I've read in this thread is true? I'm assuming you read all the spoilers if you came to that conclusion? If so, Ending spoilers Just Sayaka, technically. Madoka doesn't exist anymore, having ascended to her own plane of existence as a goddess. Homura survived, and Kyouko and Mami are both alive again due to Madoka's wish. And of course, QB is still QB.

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