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Visual Novels
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Topic Started: Feb 7 2011, 03:26 PM (21,087 Views)
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Gilgamesh
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Dec 21 2013, 05:12 AM
Post #381
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solbowz Aurarius
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To sum up and put together my previous posts, as well as expand them, to make F/SN sell better (as it was their first commercial product, they had only whatever fanbase doujin work Tsukihime managed to get them; KnK was a flop until the movies, and this predates those), Nasu and Takeuchi decided to make F/SN an eroge like Tsuki.
As it was, they had a female Master named Ayaka as a protagonist that summoned King Arthur. Ayaka, as the viewpoint character, would have routes that end up with different guys; most likely the other Servants, since the only other major male character known to appear was a villain. This obviously necessitates hentai CGs of Ayaka and guy 1, 2, etc. The target audience for eroges is largely male. So Takeuchi suggested swapping the genders of Ayaka and Saber, because that way you get to see a bunch of naked girls. Ayaka's character was pretty much ditched completely and Shirou was made largely from wholecloth. Saber remained King Arthur, but even ignoring the changes to his story necessary due to flipping his gender, a few things changed with her, though she remained a viable interpretation of the legendary British king. The relationship that Ayaka and Arthur were intended to have was somewhat reworked into the Rin/Archer relationship.
The other major changes include the following. Note that I organized them by spoilers for the actual Fate/Stay Night, as these events occurred when F/SN was going to be a light novel instead of a VN. Which is what prompted the eroge thing as well. This single story morphed into the three routes of F/SN. Anyway, so don't open the tags until you finish the route.
Fate route spoilers -The original villainous priest was some white guy that was racist against Japanese people with Berserker as his Servant. He was still the eighth Master, but his Berserker was summoned in the current war, not the past. Berserker was still Hercules. This character was scrapped, Kirei Kotomine created and put in his place, and Berserker made into new character Ilyasviel's Servant instead. -Current Archer was going to be Gilgamesh instead of who Rin's Archer is. His abilities included a blend of both current Gilgamesh and Rin Archer's abilities (Gate of Babylon while also being a skilled close ranged fighter that dual wielded swords and had a bow). He had a different Noble Phantasm, but it was still EX ranked and still OP. He was less overpowered than canon Gilgamesh though, since he was meant to be a rival instead of the villain. His personality was more amiable as a result (as you'd probably expect given the ending to the Epic of Gilgamesh). While canon Gilgamesh views Saber as a possession, Proto Gilgamesh legitimately fell in love with Ayaka and thought of her as a person. After Kirei and Shirou were created, Nasu and/or Takeuchi decided to bump Gilgamesh up to main villain, have him be summoned from the past war, and split his abilities between Rin's Archer and canon Gilgamesh. As a result his power level was increased and Gate of Babylon became more emphasized and powerful as well (originally it could only fire 10 weapons at a time, but it was still rapid fire). His personality was then darkened and his pride even more emphasized, presumably since he'd be unbeatable otherwise, as he is in all of his non-F/SN appearances. His Noble Phantasm would've been based on the Great Flood instead of Enuma Elish, with the former having much more association with Gilgamesh than the latter (as the earliest telling of a worldwide flood is in a story told to Gilgamesh within the Epic). -Rin's backstory was different and her personality somewhat darker. -Rin had Lancer as a Servant instead. He was still Cu Chuliann. -Due to having a proper Master, his stats were MUCH higher, because seriously, go look up who the [radio edit] Cu Chuliann is sometime. He's literally pretty much Ireland's Hercules. -Rider was Perseus, instead of who she is now. To be clear, it wasn't a genderbent Perseus. -Assassin was ACTUALLY Kojiro Sasaki, instead of just a "close enough" guy. As stated in the VN itself, an "actual" Kojiro doesn't exist in canon. -Excalibur was stronger in Prototype (Rank EX), but had 13 restrictions, among which were "the fight must be honorable" and "the opponent must be stronger" making it harder to use. Incidentally, Saber's fight with Archer (remember, he's Gilgamesh here) would have met all 13 of these requirements. -Saber's past Master would have been Ayaka's older sister Manaka (rather than the father/son relationship Kiritsugu and Shirou have). She knew the Grail was evil and planned to make use of it anyway because why not? She was madly in love with Saber and wanted the Grail to save his kingdom. She sacrificed innocents to the Grail, including her own father, and would have sacrificed Ayaka had Saber not turned on her and killed her. Like Kirei, however, she survived due to the Grail's taint. Once Kirei and Ilya were created as separate characters, her traits were split among them. Due to her death and resurrection, she doesn't age and is thus locked as psycho loli despite being the older sister. -This means that Saber also knew the Grail was evil from the start, and as such his relationship with Ayaka was completely different from Shirou/Saber. -Instead of being corrupted at some point like in F/SN, the Grail was originally going to be evil from the start, and it's true purpose would be to summon the Beast of Revelation.
UBW spoilers -Rin dies from a curse (in which the pain increasingly gets worse) she harbored from the beginning of the story. She makes Lancer promise to kill her once she can't bear the pain anymore, but he is unable to bring himself to do it. Her death is what leads to him helping the heroes. And to be clear, no, Rin has no such curse in F/SN. -Saber would've been stolen by evil priest guy instead of Caster. Who was still Medea. -Lancer would fight Saber and Berserker at the same [radio edit]ing time instead of just fighting Archer like in canon. I do not know if Lancer would survive this fight, but Saber and Berserker both would. -Canon Saber is actually quite a bit stronger then Arthur in terms of statistics...when she has a proper Master, anyway. Sans, again, Excalibur. -Gilgamesh vs Hercules would still happen, and it'd a mix between the Fate route battle of Archer vs Berserker and the UBW route version of this clash. It would've been a MUCH more even fight due to Gilgamesh's lower power level, and he'd technically lose the fight and survive, while Hercules would win but die. Gilgamesh was specifically chosen to be in the story to be a strong obscure hero that could take on the famous Hercules in an even fight, so that this got watered down in the final version bugs me. The other candidate for this purpose, India's hero Karna, later got created and used in Fate/Apocrypha and Fate/Extra CCC. -The Rin vs Caster fight would've been Ayaka vs priest guy, except she'd win and kill him, thus getting Saber back. This and Gilgamesh's slaying of Hercules would then be the plot twist that causes main villain Manaka to take center stage. -Manaka would use the Grail to summon the six heroes that she and Saber killed in the previous Grail War as her Servants. The Lancer is the Valkyrie Brunhildr. Rider probably would've been Alexander the Great, who actually remained in canon and was used in Fate/Zero. Presumably the story from here would've been "Arthur and Gilgamesh have to team up and beat these 6 Servants before facing final boss Servant Beast." If Lancer survived fighting Arthur/Hercules he'd probably end up helping too.
Heaven's Feel spoilers -Perseus would've a similar relationship with his Master that Sakura and Rider did, except his Master already died (he was terminally ill) but used his Command Spells to permanently incarnate Perseus, much like Gilgamesh is in canon (pretty sure Command Spells can't do this anymore). Thus, Perseus would fight to win the Grail and wish his Master back to life. Like canon Rider, he'd do evil deeds like eating souls to maintain his mana in order to do this. -That said, he would've been one of Ayaka's classmates like Shinji is to Shirou, except more like an actual friend. He'd end up saving Saber and Ayaka from Caster at one point. -He had a Pegasus as a Noble Phantasm like current Rider does. Perseus no longer has this Noble Phantasm in canon. -When Arthur is stolen by the evil priest, he gets corrupted like Saber does after the Shadow eats her, for some reason. The corruption goes away once Ayaka gets him back. -At some point after Perseus was changed to Medusa, it would be decided that Hercules would kill her after she killed him a few times with her Noble Phantasm. I don't know if Perseus would've also had this fate.
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Saturos
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Dec 21 2013, 10:47 AM
Post #382
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heart-under-blade
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Your encyclopedic knowledge of Fateverse always astounds me, Boyd.
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Super Slash
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Dec 21 2013, 06:29 PM
Post #383
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That's a pretty informative post. I'll read all of it once I finish all three routes.
Working on day 15 of UBW now, and holy crap that was a good twist. Honestly didn't expect it at all. I'm referring, of course, to
UBW spoilers Archer being Shirou as a heroic spirit.
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Peytral
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Dec 21 2013, 06:37 PM
Post #384
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peytral pls
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It feels like I'm the only one who had been spoiled about that before reading it.
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Super Slash
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Dec 21 2013, 06:38 PM
Post #385
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I accidentally got a few other things spoiled, but I'm glad there was at least something I didn't know.
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Seoulbowz
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Dec 21 2013, 06:45 PM
Post #386
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Supergeil
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- Peytral
- Dec 21 2013, 06:37 PM
It feels like I'm the only one who had been spoiled about that before reading it. I was too, but at that point I'd already nearly hit it on the head with a couple guesses.
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Saturos
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Dec 21 2013, 07:14 PM
Post #387
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heart-under-blade
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Archer's identity, UBW route I don't know where in Day 15 that is, but I got it right before Shirou goes to fight Archer in the cathedral, when he kidnaps Rin. And yeah, it was a great twist for me, too.
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leaf
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Dec 21 2013, 07:36 PM
Post #388
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Crimson Leaf Vermillion
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Unfortunately, I had that spoiled for me before starting the route (or at least very early on, idr). Although as a result, I took notice of the huge number of things that hint toward it. It was very well done, imo.
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Gilgamesh
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Dec 21 2013, 09:37 PM
Post #389
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solbowz Aurarius
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I can't remember if I had it spoiled for me, but if I didn't, I figured it out when Archer
Spoiler: click to toggle said "Trace, On!" which was pretty neat.
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yui_hime
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Dec 21 2013, 09:53 PM
Post #390
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I've played... actually I think the only real VN I've played is Hatoful Boyfriend, which is a shameless parody of the entire dating sim genre.
I did buy Fate Stay/Night at the last con I went to. I should probably play it one of these days, instead of just flipping through the artbook.
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Super Slash
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Dec 21 2013, 11:22 PM
Post #391
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Just saw Rin's h-scene.
Spoiler: click to toggle So basically, it's close to the same thing as the first h-scene in the Fate route. >_>
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Peytral
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Dec 21 2013, 11:33 PM
Post #392
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peytral pls
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Spoiler: click to toggle Emiya confirmed for Berserker class.
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Saturos
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Dec 21 2013, 11:48 PM
Post #393
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heart-under-blade
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Rin's H-scene You mean, character-breakingness on Rin's part? Yes.
Because Rin is totally going to be helpless and passive in bed while Shirou basically violates her. Yes, because that's totally believable.
Nasu PLS
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Super Slash
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Dec 21 2013, 11:59 PM
Post #394
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Yeah, it did seem kinda OoC for her. Naked Rin is pleasing on the eyes, though. 
But I was actually more referring to the reason for it, in addition to the violation.
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Skylin
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Dec 22 2013, 01:36 PM
Post #395
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2 Lewd 4 U
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The UBW end spoiler I had spoiled for me, but it was my own fault.
I watched the FSN anime first and they told who everyone really was besides him, so I looked him up.
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Super Slash
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Dec 22 2013, 07:29 PM
Post #396
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Finally finished UBW just now. How long is Heaven's Feel?
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Admiral Miral
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Dec 22 2013, 07:31 PM
Post #397
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The Light of Hope
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About as long as UBW.
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Gilgamesh
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Dec 22 2013, 07:58 PM
Post #398
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solbowz Aurarius
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It's longer than UBW, but I don't think by a really significant margin.
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Super Slash
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Dec 22 2013, 07:58 PM
Post #399
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Dang. I might have to take a break before going to HF. >_>
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UltaFlame
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Dec 22 2013, 08:50 PM
Post #400
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Thanks Poui.
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That's fine, it's the worst route anyway.
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