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Am I the only one that thinks...; Spoilers, hurr durr
Topic Started: Jan 3 2011, 05:29 AM (4,405 Views)
ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

It would be cool if Himi was canonically 11. I was always tired of having teenagers as party members. Eoleo was nice for a change (Piers has the maturity and build of a teenager in my opinion in TLA).

Probably why I liked Mother 3 so much. We got party members from different ages and even species.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Now, I'm not at the end quite yet (next on my list to do is use the three orbs to enter the Endless Wall, I believe) but it doesn't seem to me like Sveta got quite as much attention as you're claiming. The way I'm seeing it from my point of view, Sveta's "arc" ended when you rescued Eoleo and left Belinsk, because other than the fact that she's the only one who can use the Umbra Gear (which doesn't have any story significance anyway, I think it's just a gameplay decision so that they can ensure it all gets put on one character) she isn't really doing anything major any more.

Though I do agree that so far, Eoleo and Himi have been disappointingly under-developed, Himi especially. I think what you were saying about them being descended from characters from the previous game might actually be the reason for this: Camelot could be figuring "Hey, they have a link to the previous games, which is kind of like indirect characterization, but Sveta doesn't, so we need to see more of her."
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

Yeah, the rest of the game is gonna disprove pretty much everything you just said Squee.

Well, except your theory on Eoleo and Himi's lack of development.
Edited by Crash, Jan 3 2011, 04:43 PM.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

I really think you should finish the game before saying anything else.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Yeah, I was afraid of that. Guess I'll shut up now. :nyoron:
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Blissfulystoopid
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Temples' Resident Gaymer

The way I see it happening, is that they needed roughly 5-6 characters for the party, and ended up having to grasp, so we get shafted development wise. It's inevitable Sveta would be important with any basic understanding of the entire second half of the game. Amiti could go either way, he's important for his arc, but his arc also just took up space and could have been written out. It feels to me that they had the story written out, and the length of the game feels like there only should have been 4 characters. So this is my theory of some of the thought processes traced out in development.

EDIT: PURE CONJECTURE AHEAD. (Based in logic and evidence in my opinion, but it's all circumstantial)

Story wise though, they needed at least 5 to include Sveta to take the plot in the direction they wanted, and the game would still be very short if we just went through Bilibin and got to Belinsk. This leaves them at a cross-roads. To match the scope of TLA in some ways, it became necessary to add more party members, but if they were going to add one, they would need 4. Thus, the cave sequence where you got Rief ends up giving you the reach-around and exploring Southern Angara, so they invented the two Alchemy machines at Passaj and Ayuthay. The only two ruins in the game that have no explanation for being their really long times. They invent Amiti and get to weave some more subplots in the process. (Keep in mind, my theory is talking EARLY in development, when this is feasible, I don't think this all just happened one day).

Thus, we had 6 party members, but 75% of the game written out. So we needed a way to introduce two more characters. Thus, the one that makes the most sense, Eoleo, is drawn in. It seems to me they initially might not have expected to introduce Eoleo in this game, hence his small role and age that doesn't match any previous heroes, but it gave us a Fire Adept.

As for Himi, if they're grasping and needed a fourth Earth Adept, why include her at all? Takeru was heavily hinted at in TLA in much the same way Eoleo is. The whole situation reeks of them having previous plans for Takeru, presumably for the next game, and including him in this one would have wrecked it. So they invented a sister for him, and gave us a walking macguffin side-quest with mini-dungeons. This lengthens the game-time with little being needed to add to the game programming wise. Some small maps and one-room puzzles tacked on at random caves. Personally, if they had planned Himi from the start, I think this quest would have been much longer, a la searching for the Trident pieces in TLA: each dungeon for a piece of Umbra Gear would have been full length, with character interactions giving us a lot of time to flesh out Eoleo and Himi. Alas, Himi fell by the wayside, barely a character.
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Gilgamesh
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solbowz Aurarius

Satty Claus
Jan 3 2011, 10:34 AM
I agree that Himi was shorted, but there's no such thing as "too much time in the spotlight." Too much as opposed to what measurement? Camelot obviously chose to make her a primary character for a reason, and that's their decision to make.
Sure there is; if she has too much, it takes away from everyone else, which was my point. There are main characters, and then there are secondary characters. In cases where the entire party isn't full of main characters, though, then usually the extended spotlight only applies to the hero/heroine, but when 6 out of 8 characters get time, then there is such a thing as "too much" if it comes at the expense at everyone else. And my point with the Umbra Gear is that they didn't HAVE to make it beastman only, but then again as it has been pointed out, if they planned that out first, then it'd be weird for Sveta to not get the spotlight in related circumstances. And yes, of course it's their decision to make, I'm just saying it bugged me. You've played Tales of Symphonia, Satty, so you know that Lloyd and Colette got more spotlight than everyone else, but everyone else still got a lot of time (YMMV on Presea and Regal; their importance kinda vanishes once their plotline is wrapped up, but they still get characterized in skits and such even after that, and they had enough time to be defined characters during their arcs anyway).

Anyway, that tangent aside, my point with the "not connected to previous characters" is that it's kind of like the new locations and stuff. It gives me a feeling of "where did this come from," you know? For all that some people say that the problems in Dark Dawn are due to fanservice, they kinda dropped the ball on this case if that is true.

That said, what Bliss says kind of makes sense to an extent. Regardless of how many characters they planned to have, the dungeons with the Umbra Gear were much shorter compared to the dungeons that came before it. No, they shouldn't be as long as the Belinsk ruins, but still. And considering the fact that the characters in DD stop to discuss/talk about things more often than they did in the first two games kinda makes me agree that they could've done things there, yeah. The fact that Champa is optional kind of supports this, I suppose. Sure, save Chaucha, Champa's situation is explained, Eoleo tells Obaba about Briggs's death, etc, but the fact that it's optional means that it doesn't have to come up again. Look at Himi; if you get her in the party before you bring Ryu Kou and his sister back home, she doesn't even have any lines in the scene where you get the Red Orb, presumably because she doesn't have to be there.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

I still disagree. For one, you're comparing the characterization in a Golden Sun game with the characterization of a Tales of- game, where they have about 256 skits for the sole purpose of fleshing out character, so of COURSE everyone is going to be more well developed. Golden Sun, which has never really been good for characterization anyway, and you're acting surprised?
Take Mia in Golden Sun 1. You have her arc in Imil and then she basically has no plot relevance aside from that for the rest of the game. She gets some token lines, but not much.
Piers post-Lemuria, again, nothing. Jenna is also kinda light on characterization or scenes revolving around her. You have mute protagonists, and etc.

Also, I was just drawing that "11" figure out of thin air because that's what she looks like to me. :P Based on her overworld character and various other things. She certainly could be older, thought. =P

Really though, Boyd, it all comes down to if you like Sveta or not that if you view it as a good/bad thing. I know people who dislike Tales of Symphonia because it revolves around Lloyd and Colette a lot. If you like them, then you like the focus they're given. I don't have a problem with Sveta being focused on, and I don't think Karis really got shorted in the deal, either - she and Sveta have some great interaction, for example.
While I think Himi may have possibly got shorted - I think Sveta (the Kradenette) said once that just because a character doesn't talk much in a game, they get [radio edit]ed at for having no characterization. Maybe Himi's quietness is exactly a part of her character. I know I could certainly spin her into an awesome character, what with someone who feels suppressed, hedged in from all sides, and like other people using her as a voice leaves her with no voice of her own, someone who, as a latecomer to the party, believes that she doesn't really belong with the others.

To summarize, in Golden Sun as I've known it, it's never been what they've actually done that represents the full potential, it's what you can do with it.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

Satty Claus
Jan 3 2011, 06:08 PM
I think Sveta (the Kradenette) said once that just because a character doesn't talk much in a game, they get [radio edit]ed at for having no characterization. Maybe Himi's quietness is exactly a part of her character. I know I could certainly spin her into an awesome character, what with someone who feels suppressed, hedged in from all sides, and like other people using her as a voice leaves her with no voice of her own, someone who, as a latecomer to the party, believes that she doesn't really belong with the others.
Yup it was me alright who said that. I am naturally quiet in real life. In fact I was taken to therapists in order to get me to talk more but I still don't talk unless I feel that there is something important to say. I think this is why Himi appeals to me. She also doesn't talk much either but most interpret that as "lol no characterization" That may really be her personality.
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Blissfulystoopid
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Temples' Resident Gaymer

I've actually got to note about Sveta and Satty's point regarding Himi's quietness. The thought never occurred to me, and it could be an interesting character facet for her to be quiet, out of place, and feel like a latecomer to the party.
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Gilgamesh
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solbowz Aurarius

I know, Satty, which is why I was saying I found it kinda surprising that we got a (relatively) well developed character in Sveta. :U

EDIT: I guess the Himi=quiet thing would kinda make sense though; didn't think about it like that before.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

I see myself in Himi actually. It's probably why she automatically got into my permanent party (did you know that she was the one who took down the final boss in my game.... with a Ramses summon) I am so surprised that according to most of the GS fandom the more a character is a chatterbox, the more character has personality.

Edit: Scratch that, it is not just the GS fandom, it's the whole world who has problems with the quiet ones. My parents, teachers, principals, therapists are trying to get me to talk more which led to me getting into loads of awkward moments when I didn't even want to talk at all. I also hate when my parents used to (and even now) "reminds" me say "hello" or the like, when I was about to do just that.

I am starting to think the backlash against Himi is a small scale reminder of how the whole world views the silent ones.
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Blissfulystoopid
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Temples' Resident Gaymer

Reading into it a bit deep there, I'd say. Quiet is one thing, and surely it can be something to be valued, however "quiet" people also tend to have very distinct personalities that simply aren't expressed. "Quiet" is a facet of one's personality, not the core of it. I can assure you there is no vendetta against "the quiet ones" as you say. I don't mean to start any arguments, but it sounds to me like you've got a vendetta surrounding the "quiet one" archetype based on your personal experiences and a sense of being treated with prejudice.

I don't think it's backlash at all. People want to learn more. Belligerantly asking a quiet person to speak more is typically a genuine interest in getting them to express themselves more. While it isn't always the case, such quietness is often the result of timidness and a lack of self assurance, and generally people see what they're doing as helping. Quiet people often have a wide variety of interests and such that nobody knows about, because they don't tell anybody. This isn't universal but this is OFTEN the case. I can vouch for this as I used to be incredibly quiet myself, but as I've opened up to others, my personality has blossomed and I've developed a number of ways. Due to instances, people tend to view "the quiet ones" simply as "the ones who are bottling everything up and not expressing themselves." Bottling up your emotions is a surefire way to explode, so yes, as "prejudice" as it may seem, there's truth to the statement, but again, it's case by case, and by no means universal.

Himi is quiet, and this MAY just be her personality, but this certainly hasn't been confirmed. We don't KNOW whether she's quiet, because she doesn't get the chance to speak. For all we know, she could have a personality similar to Hama, or Sheba, or she could be as feisty as a Mars adept. None of these personalities can be discounted, because she is programmed to participate in all of two or three cutscenes with no more than a single interjection.

In some games, you get an outside source material, often stating that someone is a "character of few words" or some such, and THOSE characters are accepted as being quiet. Look at Nagato Yuki in the Haruhi Light Novels / Anime. No one bothers her to speak more. Himi however, has had no "word of god" or outside source to confirm this, so everyone generally feels that she might have more to her we won't know. She isn't merely quiet, she joins the game when there is all of 3 cutscenes left, so she doesn't get a CHANCE to show us whether she is or is not quiet. Thus, she got shafted. Bear in mind, I'm not saying that she got "shafted" by having a quiet personality, but she got shafted out of a choice, out of a possibility. We don't know whether or not she has ANY personality in mind by the developers, but if people try to work with her character in fanfic or the like, she's locked into an archetypal personality that was never confirmed to be hers. She simply is, she exists, and she has no personality other than one we have to assume is the case.

If Himi's personality were "quiet" and we were told it would be one thing, and people would accept that. But the thing is, with someone "quiet" it is IMPOSSIBLE to establish that as fact in media without having it openly stated. Any attempt to create a quiet character must have it stated in-game or out, or else the natural assumption is that the character wasn't fleshed out. We were not told Himi was quiet, we were given a character all of an hour before the end of the game with no role other than a literal walking macguffin, dispensing prophecy as needed or not participating at all.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

I guess until Camelot confirms there is nothing we can do. I still stand by my thoughts that she is a quiet one because I guess that is what I can get out of her. It's too bad we don't have an arena mode in this game. In the arena mode we were able to learn that Ivan was a nervous one, if you put him in the battle party then talk to him, he says something along the lines of "please switch me for someone else. Sheba in the other hand loves fighting, she gets excited when you put her on your team, she says something like "I will show you what I can do". If Felix is on the battle party but she is not, she gets very upset, I forgot the exact words but it is probably along the lines of "what you don't think I am good enough?'.

It's quite fun to get different responses from different characters depending on the arena line up. We could have learned a lot more about the Dark Dawn characters including Himi this way.
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b l o n d e b o n d
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Wombo Combo

Double Impact makes up for all other shortcomings.


Forever.
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Sabre Dance
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X-treme Lurker

Amiti looks twelve and what is this


Sveta's big arc thing/screen time/whatever actually got on my nerves a bit. I love her to death, because she is a badass wolf girl with a [radio edit]ing transformation and also her shirt opened(?), but the one thing I was really looking forward to in this game was spending some quality time with the next of kin of all our favourite NPC's and party members. I was disappointed with the lack of this, but I kinda get why they may have focused more on a completely original character rather than someone who has already kinda been "done" in the first two games. Sveta's importance kind of... irked me. I spent a lot of time raeging about that while I played.

I still hope that there's more hanging out time with the old cast and their kids in the next book, though.

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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I actually always took Sheba's comment to mean that she dislikes others thinking of her as weak or useless for being a young girl, which goes along well with her scene in Trial Road.

But this is exactly what I like about the GS series, in a way. The games insert enough material for you to see that the characters have personalities, but people interpret them in different ways. It makes the fandom more interesting.

Himi is effectively a silent protagonist, but without the protection of actually being one. Even Matt gets more note than her; he's even called out on being quiet in one scene, by Karis. Himi's silence doesn't even get a mention. Which is a shame, honestly, because quiet characters can easily have interesting scenes, and I really like the points that got brought up about why she might be quiet.

On the actual topic, though, I didn't mind. Sveta was already the most interesting character to me when I got her, so having the plot revolve around her felt fine to me. Plus, I'm biased towards Jupiter. :3
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Sabre Dance
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HyrulianJedi
Jan 3 2011, 09:12 PM
Even Matt gets more note than her
Well, he does have FOUR, COLOURED emoticons to help him display a wide range of vague emotions that never seem to be interpreted the way you meant them to be interpreted.

Also he swears.



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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Yeah, Bliss, Kradenette!Sveta wasn't backlashing against quiet archetypes, she was doing the opposite. Anyway, I disagree with most of your post, for the cardinal principle that I believe I don't need word of God, and authorial intention is absolutely irrelevant. In fact, I feel I can completely discard what an author says of the text if it's not in the work itself. So even if they said "oh yeah by the way Himi is really a spitfire" I'd be like "lolno." Because my personal reaction to the story is more important than whatever the author may have been going for an failed/did not get across.

</post-modern "death of the author" theory>

Anyway, having just beat the game, I think we can also subscribe the characteristics of "empathetic" and perhaps "formal" to Himi's character. When the Chaos Hound is roaring at Sveta after being Slapped in a way that Tyrell takes to be rage, she says "Not angry... very very sad." (I can't remember if that second very is in there or not, but if so, it also lends theory to my "Himi as a younger character" idea, however the more I think about it, I don't think it was there). Also in her words to Matthew there, she comments very stiffly on how she has enjoyed her time with him, because he has been "an inspirational leader." Which also gives you some idea of what Himi values, and her relationship to Matthew. She doesn't value him as a friend, exactly - she values him as a leader, first and foremost (and this is as Matthew is about to apparently sacrifice himself, so it's certainly justified).

Stuff like this is what I love the most about Camelot's gamestyle, since with a few very well-chosen phrases, they hint at the wider characterization beneath, but only if you're willing to do the mental work as a reader/gamer to look beneath the surface.


As an aside, I've always liked two different kinds of RPGs: there's the Tales of- kind which fleshes out every single aspect of the characters and states everything, so while you are told probably some of the best stories every, there isn't much room to take it afterwards, since it's already done. However, stories like Golden Sun or Bomberman: The Second Attack hint at characterization with subtle brushstrokes, and ask the reader/gamer to actually work in figuring out the characterization.
While both styles are certainly valid and I love them to death, I get more enjoyment in the post post games from the interpretational style, since it's why I keep coming back and playing the games: for pieces and hints that I might have missed the first time round, and each time changes my perspective very slightly. And for me, in the end, my perspective, my subjective experience with the characters, and with the work as a whole: that's what matters to me.
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

^put the words into my mouth. Himi grew on me over time. Now I don't know if I want to make a Himi plushie next or an Eoleo plushie next.

Speaking of Eoleo, he is the other one the fandom has issues with. It's very easy to tell once you free him that he is one that loves to taunt people especially Amiti. But then after a certain scene he starts to mellow out but still has moments of sarcasm like when Amiti hoped to wake up in his own home, Eoleo says something along the lines of "like a rude awakening". Even though the game doesn't show it, I have a feeling that Amiti and Eoleo start warming up to each other, still teasing (mostly from Eoleo) but sometimes having mature conversations off camera which is Eoleo poking fun at Amiti's naivety and then sharing his own knowledge of the world. Also I have a future fanart idea of Eoleo giving a noogie to Amiti, I mean he is the type to do just that and Amiti is perfect for the victim role.

Also we have Eoleo and Sveta. The scene on the ship after they wake up show that he cares about her wellbeing but he also feels he avenged his father's death when Volechek is killed (also being put in a cage and almost being executed in a barbaric way totally doesn't help matters). Sometimes I wonder if there are feelings of tension between each other due to this.
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