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Is Amiti worth anything?
Topic Started: Dec 27 2010, 11:55 PM (3,774 Views)
UltaFlame
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Thanks Poui.

Role
Dec 29 2010, 10:41 PM
Team Royals wasn't much better.
You misunderstand. Whereas I liked TLA's crew, I never had as much love for the original party. I'd probably have used them more if Matthew and Tyrell didn't seem like 'Isaac and Garet again, only this time Garet's actually stupid, and not just perceived by the fanbase as being stupid.'

But Himi was playable female venus adept, which I wanted, and Amiti was cool and I never did much understand Piers hate, if any existed, I liked Jenna's class, so Eoleo having a similar set didn't bother me at all, and besides I don't care about damage output he was STILL a raging badass, and Karis's personality made it seem like she was the party leader the whole time, since Matthew was silent, Rief was basically a yes-man, and Tyrell screwed everything over and occasionally said 'okay, that's nice, but let's move on'

So all in all I prefer team royals over team isaac's group again because I liked the group dynamics, but they seemed too cloney, in both personality and classes, which really is what got to me.

I don't know, I'm saying the same things over and over and I don't think any point I made is coherent. Whatever, I'm tired, and this is the best I'll be able to do, so whatever.
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Role
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Fulminous Witch
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To be honest, this whole game was filled with characters that could be called "Team Fanservice!".

The first team was literally the original characters, which many people wanted back. The second team was about what we wanted. Eoleo. Venus Mage. FEMALE Venus Adept. Jupiter Fighter. Playable werewolf. Playable Alex (ish)/Piers with equips that support the mage classes.

NOTHING in the game tried to address the common problems with the game - such as the low difficulty (it's even EASIER?!), psynergy's worthlessness in the late game (it's even MORE worthless?!), the problems with alt-classes for anyone who's not in Isaac's team (just made ridiculous in that it looks like they started to try, but just gave up halfway through).

As such, it's save to say that DD was just a fanservice game. Let's hope that for the next one, they start actually working on some of the issues where the game needs focus on. DD will make us happy, even those of us who don't like the downpoints. After all, it's GOLDEN SUN! After SEVEN FREAKING YEARS! But the next game had better start addressing issues, or there's gonna be LOADS of backlash.
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Gilgamesh
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solbowz Aurarius

Role
Dec 31 2010, 08:08 AM
NOTHING in the game tried to address the common problems with the game - such as the low difficulty (it's even EASIER?!), psynergy's worthlessness in the late game (it's even MORE worthless?!), the problems with alt-classes for anyone who's not in Isaac's team (just made ridiculous in that it looks like they started to try, but just gave up halfway through).
Just because you think something is a flaw doesn't mean the devs do. Psynergy, for example. Yes, it is useless endgame and yeah, that is a problem. However, simply adding a fluctuating stat wouldn't fix it. One of the things that makes Golden Sun different than other games that use magic and other similar things is the fact that elemental power is only tied to adept class and djinn, not levels. What this means is that everyone's psynergy is equally powerful. Tyrell's Pyroclasm isn't substantially weaker than Karis's Spark Plasma, for example (base classes). In most other games of this type, it would be, since Tyrell's base class is a warrior type. Adding a stat to psynergy could ruin this formula. It's not perfect, but Camelot seems to like it. Could it be better? Yes. Would adding a stat like intelligence or whatnot make psynergy useful late game? Yes, but it'd ruin what Camelot was going for in the first place.

As for classes. Should there be new classes? Yes. Should classes not be carbon copies among adepts? (ex: Matthew and Himi can both be War Adepts) Probably. However, things like "Piers syndrome" is preference. What if Camelot doesn't want each character to be stuck in a specific role? Unless Amiti's class being a copy of Piers's class is laziness (and it probably is, admittingly), Camelot doesn't think it's a problem. Otherwise why would Karis and Sveta(and Ivan and Sheba before them) be able to access the Conjurer class by "overloading" them with Mars/Venus djinn? Plus, fighter classes like Dragoon still get Wish Well, even if they lack massive amounts of PP. While it did turn out that most characters have only fighter or only mage classes, Camelot doesn't seem to see this as a problem. After all, the stat change between classes mean that Piers isn't any worse of a Sage than Mia is.

As for the old classes, maybe Camelot sees them as "standard," like how every game in the Tales series has a character with the same set of skills (Demon Fang, Tiger Blade, etc).

As for the difficultly level being lower, this seems to be a result of bad game design more than anything else. 35 djinn are permanently lost forever if you don't get them. That means that if you miss them all, five people get five djinn and three only get four. The game still has to be beatable that way. And would it be harder if Matthew was stuck as a Gallant instead of a Slayer? Probably. Hell, you barely get Revive, since that needs four Venus djinn! Anyway, what I'm saying is if that they weren't so stupid with the points of no return the game probably wouldn't be so easy.
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

Boyd actually brings up a really good point. The less Djinn you have, the less powerful you are and so you'll struggle more and more, which seems to be a very good reason for the game's difficulty. It also explains for instance, why Himi has Revive regardless of what Djinn she has.

If only they made something similar to the Battle Mode in the original game and had the Djinn pop up there and beating them got them on your team. That would have solved everything. ; ~ ;
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b l o n d e b o n d
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Wombo Combo

Rief is only good after you summon boreas with him. Then he pure wishes every turn for about 900 to everybody until the battle is over. Sure makes Ogre Trolls easy
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Deleted User
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The Ogre Titans aren't that hard anyway. They're entirely one-trick ponies. :U
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daigonite
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Well, you can peel his skin and sell it on the market...

I found myself using Rief a lot more than Amiti. He just sat on his ass in the back party. lol
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Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

I feel like Amiti would be a lot better if I could get a Tisiphone Edge to drop.
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Gilgamesh
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solbowz Aurarius

He's better with the Sagittarius Bow since it's strongest unleash is Mercury :U

Get Himi a Tisiphone Edge instead.
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Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

As a sidenote, I'm really really glad they included bows as a weapons class.
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Raven the Ravenous
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Worthy
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Gilgamesh
Jan 23 2011, 08:29 PM
He's better with the Sagittarius Bow since it's strongest unleash is Mercury :U

Get Himi a Tisiphone Edge instead.
:blink: What's with all the hate with Rief when the thread's about Amiti?

Ah, I got three Tisiphone Edge. *awaits pelting of tomatoes* But I only equipped two of the three since the Sagittarius Bow is the better weapon for Amiti. Blue Comet is such an amazing Unleash and considering that Amiti is part of my main team, he does wonders with it. Only rarely since he doesn't unleash like Matthew with Sol Blade.

As for Amiti's worth to me, yes, yes he is worth using. In fact, all of them are worth using if you know when and how to use them. Even Rief. Poor guy. People expected a clone of his mother. Too bad it's not who we thought it'd be.
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Role
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Fulminous Witch
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Just because you think something is a flaw doesn't mean the devs do.
Doesn't mean I'm wrong, either. Bad game design is bad game design, even if the devs don't think so.

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One of the things that makes Golden Sun different than other games that use magic and other similar things is the fact that elemental power is only tied to adept class and djinn, not levels.
Yeah, physical attacks? They look at these stats too. I agree, having separate elemental power is something that sets GS apart from others, and should be kept. But the fact that not only is psynergy not influenced by it enough to catch up or even come close to comparing to the power of unleahshes, unleashes and other EPAs use the same exact stats to determine their power as well. The difference? They get an additional boost in the Attack stat. Sure, the boost from Elemental Power is less, reflecting the more physical nature of the attack, but the fact that it still has a noticeable influence kind of ruins your argument here.

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What this means is that everyone's psynergy is equally powerful. Tyrell's Pyroclasm isn't substantially weaker than Karis's Spark Plasma, for example (base classes).
Yeah, when the physical fighters can do just as much damage as the mages with spells, a lot of us will consider that as bad game design. Especially in GS, where this basically means that you're a fool if you use a mage for anything other than a pure healer or buffer. And sometimes, some would say event then, since the Ronin and Paladin classes do those jobs just as well, while also packing a punch and having a nice amount of HP. It basically gives us Linear Wizards, Quadratic Warriors, when ideally both should be about the same, and shine in different areas.

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It's not perfect, but Camelot seems to like it.
The dev team is not always right.

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Would adding a stat like intelligence or whatnot make psynergy useful late game? Yes, but it'd ruin what Camelot was going for in the first place.
Who are you to say that this is what Camelot was indeed going for? Where you'd a fool to use this supposedly powerful force for anything other than healing and buffs? For all the rhetoric in the game about psynergy being powerful, it sure doesn't reflect it, which causes the wrong message to come across to a lot of people, myself included. If psynergy is supposed to be this powerful, mighty force, then why is it that "psynergy sucks"?

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As for classes. Should there be new classes? Yes. Should classes not be carbon copies among adepts? (ex: Matthew and Himi can both be War Adepts) Probably. However, things like "Piers syndrome" is preference.
Remember the part where Piers Sucks? Yeah, that. The thing is, you should not have to lock a character into their base class for them to be any good. At least give them equipment support to allow them to use their alt-classes well as well, such as with Amiti.

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What if Camelot doesn't want each character to be stuck in a specific role?
Uh, they don't? That's why we have class changes. If you don't like their role, change it to something else. If you want Tyrell to be a Buffer instead of a tank, you can do that. If you want him to be a healer, you can do that too. That's the whole point behind the class system.

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Unless Amiti's class being a copy of Piers's class is laziness (and it probably is, admittingly), Camelot doesn't think it's a problem.
Aqua Squire, Aqua Knight, Aqua Lord... yeah, good call with the laziness, it totally defines half-assed. At least stick with the old names for the class, y'know?

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Otherwise why would Karis and Sveta(and Ivan and Sheba before them) be able to access the Conjurer class by "overloading" them with Mars/Venus djinn?
Well, other than pointing out that game mechanics causes this, I can also use this to make a point. For Karis, this shows that you can have a mage utilize fighter classes. However, as they're not built for them, they cannot reach the same potential that someone who is built for them could. I'm probably with you here - I want this to stay. I should have the option to turn mages physical or fighters magical if I want, so long as they can't outshine their counterparts. And besides, as long as they bring item classes back, we'll have even more ways to do that.

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Plus, fighter classes like Dragoon still get Wish Well, even if they lack massive amounts of PP. While it did turn out that most characters have only fighter or only mage classes, Camelot doesn't seem to see this as a problem.
Your argument would be 100% valid if it were probable that you'd run out of PP without grinding. Problem is that you can kill off enemies too easily, the game is just too easy to really justify. So it's less of a class argument and more of a 'lack of difficulty screwed the system' kinda thing. Sveta is another great example of this - her beastform would be amazing... if you didn't wipe out all the enemies in one turn anyways.

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After all, the stat change between classes mean that Piers isn't any worse of a Sage than Mia is.
Where have you been the last seven years? Piers doesn't have the equipment support to really get close to Mia. Mia can do a nice variety of builds, such as the >50 luck build, the epic PP regen build, a near-max (f not max) elemental power build... While Piers gets equipment that'd be great for physical classes... if he had the stat support to justify it.

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As for the old classes, maybe Camelot sees them as "standard," like how every game in the Tales series has a character with the same set of skills (Demon Fang, Tiger Blade, etc).
I don't have much problem with this. But even the tales series has some variety, you know? Mix it up a little, and have the classes fit the characters. That's all I'm saying.

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As for the difficultly level being lower, this seems to be a result of bad game design more than anything else. 35 djinn are permanently lost forever if you don't get them. That means that if you miss them all, five people get five djinn and three only get four. The game still has to be beatable that way. And would it be harder if Matthew was stuck as a Gallant instead of a Slayer? Probably. Hell, you barely get Revive, since that needs four Venus djinn! Anyway, what I'm saying is if that they weren't so stupid with the points of no return the game probably wouldn't be so easy.
Agreed, you get djinn way too fast in this game, and the enemies can't keep up. I'm doing an inepts run, so I can attest to what you're saying being true - it's a LOT harder if you don't have the stat support that higher classes give you. The problem is, the game shouldn't be designed around it. Just... don't have PoNRs, or if you do, only have it so that one or two djinn can be missed that way. Keep the difficulty at least medium. Even the first two games were Easy Mode, this just takes that and gives it Novice Mode. If nothing else, if they're doing this to try and appeal to casuals or something, at least give us difficulty options for those of us who aren't, you know?



Look, the devs aren't perfect. The PoNRs and slow start to the game are proof enough of this. What I'm saying, though, is that they weren't trying to fix issues that the game may have had - they were trying to keep it familiar. This isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's been seven years, so most of us are just happy to have the new game, and won't pay any mind to it. But watch - if they come out with something similar within a year or so, there will be a lot of backlash. I don't mean the Hype Backlash that DD got either - I mean a more legit backlash. So what is Camelot thinking? Who knows. It could very well be that the entire reason they did this was to help us ease back into the series after so long, to keep it familiar before they go in and change it. I highly doubt they'll do a huge overhaul of the game's system, and in fact, they probably shouldn't, as they'll most likely get a lot of flack for it. But that doesn't mean that they can't tweak and fix slowly as new games come out. For example... did you notice that Sveta and Himi aren't stuck with the typical "Jupiter" and "Venus" classes? Consider it a nudge. In the next game, you could easily expect this to be more pronounced.
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LSunnyC
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The Fallen Duchess

Am I the only person who consistently kept both Amiti and Rief in my party? D: At least I did once Rief got the Wish series. I'm really kinda ticked that I simply didn't come across most of the popular weapons (Excalibur, Lachesis, Hercules Axe, etc.) I only got the Rune blade because I managed to find it in the ocean, but the Kuchugi-something sword Amiti had from Craggy peak(?) on still got me through the final boss with minimal trouble.

Difficulty discussion
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Gilgamesh
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solbowz Aurarius

Role
Jan 24 2011, 06:15 AM
stuff
Dohoho, I meant to reply to you sooner, Role. Sorry about that.

Anyway, what it boils down to is that I was saying a lot of the stuff that may be problems could just be hit by "They Changed it So it Sucks." Not saying all of them would have, it's just tricky. Giving psynergy a stat could balance things out more but at the same time would invalidate the "healer Paladin" thing. Should that be invalidated? Probably, but people will whine about that. Honestly though, a lot of the reason why some of this stuff could be improved is related to the difficulty, but we seem to be on the same page there. I also agree with you on how DD's changes to weapons kinda made psynergy even more useless though.

Hell frankly I didn't even think about equipment support making Ivan a much better Pure Mage than Piers because the game is so easy. Now that I think about it, if it was harder then the Mysterious Robe could make or break things >__>

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