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Statement of Intent Revisited~; Let's get down to business.
Topic Started: Dec 3 2010, 07:53 AM (4,888 Views)
Saturos
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heart-under-blade

I know you weren't, Fluff.
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Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

I'm with Silvy, Ian, and Gwydd. Silvy's point on individuals leading by example is one of the things I hoped this thread would help inspire in the forums. Ultimately, I think that's one of the most important things to have come out of this discussion. Gwee's talk about respect and community dynamics is why I try not to distinguish the Temple as something other than "RL," because it that will lead to some faulty assumptions I see here that I rarely see offline.

One can connect the dots to other Kradenettes after this, but I want to temporarily break from this and talk about myself since I've spent much of time responding to the derailment of this thread / general, abstract things. I would also like to remind UltaFlame that this thread was not intended to be a direct response to Jarnakel's thread, but a venue to delve on a range of issues. I was bound to start a discussion sometime or another.

I haven't complained about it enough to cause storms, but I'm sure some of you are well aware that there are a lot of things that have been troubling me since I became a regular again last spring. I'd like to think it's unnecessary now after all we have discussed, but something in me wants to address this very badly. Virtually all of it coincides with what has been talked about and I stand by everything I and several others have said about consideration and related ethics in the previous pages - let's not forget that. It's the key to getting past several of my issues, but if it isn't clear what what I'm talking about when I speak of myself, let me remind everyone of something I wrote in the opening post:

Vačscent
 
I have no hard feelings, but what happened here is testament to one of the very reasons I signed onto this statement. It's not just about seriousness, it's about empathy. It's about being considerate, you know, understanding what you're dealing with and not royally blowing off what is handed to you.
Also, I'm aware of this notion of "wherever the wind blows, the topic flows," but some threads should be treated as inherently more serious than others. You can keep your silliness, but refrain from participating in such topics if you have nothing but foolish comments to contribute. In fact, you all are pretty good with that ethic in the storytime forum. Why can't you extend that? I'm talking in particular about practically all of my in-character, Templeverse threads in the ToK/Clan Commons section. For instance, don't "cool story bro" me. If you don't feel the least bit awkward saying stuff like that, I'm wondering what your impression of me really is. *eyebrow* Do you take me as a fool who types up stuff like that for the hell of it? There's disconnect in this community and I want to end it.

What I've always considered most fun about this community were the powerful Templeverse narratives. You know, the clans, the dramatic personas, the histories, the RPs... those are what inspire the most enthusiasm from me. I feel privileged to be apart of the community for that alone. But all throughout this year (my recent arc of activity), I have found myself constantly having to clear up my impressions to others.

Recently, Werebarret and Delfeir have been successful with their respective sagas. In contrast, almost everything I have tried to start have eventually been derailed to the point where I give up after lecturing on some of the misconceptions that have arisen. Have I failed to articulate myself despite my constant show of disapproval? It seems like a downward spiral when you consider I have seen comments like (I'm paraphrasing) "Oh, Vačscent is always like that so we've been desensitized. Sometimes we humor him; other times, we ignore him."
What's been more frustrating is that I once shut the door on this issue wayy back in 2006-early 2007. It was a time when there was drama over my TL;DRs in the roleplay forum with the then active userbase - but in the end, many of us got past the issue. This is what I meant by circular patterns, repeating history. I know much of the... performances don't actually take place in the roleplay forum, but I don't see why it should matter given how I present it. Recall what I quoted from the opening post above. I doubt most of you take me as fool.

All in all, I've come to the conclusion that the (main) reason the current problem persists is because the mass majority of the userbase here hardly knows me. Correct me if you think I'm wrong. This is in contrast to Werebarret and Delfeir, who are less mysterious, or rather, more established Kradenettes. I had hoped my messages would trickle down into the community, but perhaps it was wrong to only take that approach. I think my biggest failure was not being more down-to-earth with you all since I hardly make regular posts. This is what I was getting at when I said that those I have talked to the most are the ones who tend to respect me the most. It's naive to expect a community so big to take in everything I say with ease.
Ian wasn't referring to me in his last post, but what he said in the very end feels relevant to this: "I think that we have had problems in the past and we will get through them as we have in the past, although I admit that it will be more difficult this time than in the past."
On that note, I recall Gilgamesh having once said that I keep "acting the same" and talking about things the mass majority of the current userbase cannot relate to. I wonder how true that has been? We've had discussions before, but it seems I am a living showcase of the past/present tension in the Temple. I am an oldie/vet that, due to the turn of events, is also a newbie.

Realistically, it is doubtful that I will get to know the userbase as well as I should for sometime. The circumstances are such that I can't spend too time online at once, and that's perhaps case with many of you here. I will, however, try my best to act on what's been discussed.
The Eastering Eclipse arc is here stay, though. =3 I need a break from typing, so that's all for now.

"The Temple is a living, breathing entity; we're constantly moving forward and expressing ourselves in new ways." ~ Gwydd
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Sundancer
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Stargazer

I am far too tired to actually try and comment on everything that's been going on here, but let me just pick out a few things:

Quote:
 
Recently, Werebarret and Delfeir have been successful with their respective sagas.


Not exactly. I mean, to an extent, yes, but Were's went on pretty long and that bothered some people. Delf's also bothered some people.

Quote:
 
I am an oldie/vet that, due to the turn of events, is also a newbie.


I was this as well, around this time two years ago. It wasn't so hard to fit in - just don't call so much attention to the fact that you don't and are left behind by time, or whatever. It's true that that sort of attitude or reminders might put people off when they try to get to know you. And y'know, a lot of the stuff is in jest about your RP-style posts, based on past history and so on. I don't think anybody means to actually mock you at every turn for every single takeover you do or something - they just happen so often that sometimes people might have that sort of perspective on it. Besides, every "saga" as you call it, even by "more established Kradenettes" like Delf or Were had people who disapproved.

As a final note, you're starting to confuse me. Is this supposed to be about the Temple's recent issues as a whole, or your personal issues about the treatment you receive in your RP-esque threads? Are you just using that as an example? I assume it's an example that you can easily think of, it just seems to be straying slightly from the many other differences we have that doesn't have anything to do (or has little to do) with these "saga" things.
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Kiki
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Kiki Martius Chantico

Just wanna say, it's nice to see how this discussion has taken a turn for the civil, considering how much anger has accompanied the issue for the past half-year or so. I hope everyone's getting some peace out of this.
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UltaFlame
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Thanks Poui.

Just wanna say Vae's last post confused me, too, which is why I didn't respond - I couldn't think of any way to respond to that because I was wondering just what the thread was about all of a sudden.
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Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

DARING VOLITION IS TYPING...
> Approx. 2 pages in response written up as of 9:37 pm PST.

(Perhaps I didn't do a good enough job in drawing the connection. And now, sleep tiemz because I really, really need sleep and felt everyone must be reminded that my reign of terror is not over yet because I might be too busy to attend to the matter tomorrow~)
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Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

This thread slipped my mind. Ahem.

I mentioned my issue with this in the opening post. Read the quote again. If it helps to put things into perspective, one of the influences for the creation of the "previous" thread - the thread I've been trying to move away from - was indeed this personal issue.
So, yes it -is- an example of the silliness versus seriousness and respect/consideration factor. Aside from the disconnects I noticed/problems others were facing, this here is one of the MAJOR things that drove me to continue this topic. It was getting to the point where it seemed I could avoid talking about this, but upon reading some comments about me in the s-box I thought I should directly address my personal issue since this thread has gotten this far, anyway. If it still isn't clear, let me elaborate as this transcends my RP-style posts. Please bare with me as I'm about to play the "old-days" card.

. . . . .
There have been times in the past where I wished I stayed inactive. I idealized the old Temple, the one I knew from 2005 to the first half of 2007. I know it's wrong to think about it as the "apex," but it is INCREDIBLY vivid in my memory. Things have changed, but I've, for a long time, seen myself as a shadow of the person that was left behind then. A part of me had this animosity towards the present.

For instance, when I arrived last spring, I felt as if I had almost entirely been written out of the Temple. A lot of the people I once spoke to had gone inactive and the mass majority of the userbase really had no idea who I was. It wasn't a simple case of "fitting in"; it was a generational gap, something strong enough to keep me away. As of today, approximately -five- out of the six of my posts are from the old Temple. Those posts were my contributions.
2007 was a mindset - it was the basis on which I judged everything else in this place. I noticed early on that the way others interpreted my posts/threads were very different from that time. It was to be expected all things considered, but it made me very hesitant to post normally. "Normally," as in, the way I was accustomed to in the past. It felt like a "forum" or some intangible bureau, as opposed to the community I once associated with. I felt like a number, as opposed to a contributing member. For awhile, it felt as if I was wasting all my time trying to reestablish or "regain" the image I once had. It was nostalgia to the extreme as I lacked interest in almost everything I saw.

My support for the assimilation of SRS SRS BSNS into General Discussion last May (I mind the conditions less now) and push for Templeverse things like the University of Kraden, Tribes, Void, the Sol/Eclipse arc, and et cetera are just some examples of where I did place my interests in. The joke topic I made in PG about "relinquishing" my title as Clan Second of Sol/leaving the Temple (back in April) - the one where everyone perceived it to be real farewell - was the result of me desperately wanting to slip into Temple persona again.
(I know it sounds like I'm moping, but again, perspective if one is to understand where this is coming from.)

Onward, it seemed as if the Temple had changed from the carefree one I remembered. Several older users have spoken to me about this, so I know my findings aren't completely off.
During the first few months of my return, I witnessed several flame wars, divisiveness among people, or what have you that, again, was at a level I was not accustomed to seeing here. I spent a good deal of my time reading through the archive of old threads to see what I missed and realized how real this generational gap really was. I don't know if it's possible to fully articulate my impressions of the old Temple, but let's just say the sort of remarks I tend to get from people who hardly know me and the general level of silliness have tended to keep my posting rate down. Again, I know it's to be expected - but it's not fun at all to deal with it when I see things repeat and repeat and over and over again. I bring back my point on the intangible bureau.

I'm happy to say that I've noticed a lot of improvements and am optimistic of the Temple's future. Whatever divisiveness here seems pretty see-through. I think we have an even greater potential to be the community Gwydd spoke of now then the one from the past. The issue for me has always been that I have to invest time in order to get to know everyone and vise versa before things can sink in. I'm an outdoorsy person that finds it to difficult to actively participate in large online communities, but this place has always been different. Though that hiatus lasted for some time, I thought of the Temple community often, woefully unaware of how it was changing, evolving under my radar. I finally stepped out of lurkdom this year because of a warmth I felt when some were excited about my arrival. Had I realized the things I do now, I would've made an effort to have never "left" (disassociating myself as much as I did).

I hope this and what has been addressed in the earlier posts of this thread helps in clearing things up.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

I think one of the other reasons for that disconnect you may be feeling, Vačscent, is that if you post in Temple persona all the time instead of just as yourself, in normal topical issues or various social things, people may feel like they don't know you that well. If the only image you present of yourself is of the RPer, which may be fine, people may be less inclined to empathize with you, because a personality like that is inherently exclusive based on the narrative that it's built on.
Even in terms of an RP basis, take FC for example. I axed the majority of Saturos' backstory from the RP since, as RPs are communal ventures, most of Saturos' backstory concerned Saturos alone, and there weren't very many inlets that other people could take into his character. The moment I dropped that, though, connections with Zephira's character, for example, sprung up, and I'm sure once I get over the "wood" arc, I'll probably be able to find more. Because all of Saturos' backstory did not actually relate too much to the story at hand, so I'm free to fashion what -does- relate.
I'm sure you see my analogy, here. The running narrative that we have, being centered around us, is difficult for other people to participate, since perceptually they were automatically be taking on a second role to the two main players. That may not necessarily be the case, and some people prefer that kind of style, but you could also widen your persona's range. What could Vačscent do that -doesn't- relate to overthrowing Saturos?
Also, just participating in more RPs, not always in the Vačscent persona, may also be a good idea, since it allows you to communicate with more people, and experiment with other voices, as well. ^^ Just a thought.
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Dracobolt
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Incorrigible

Satty Claus
Dec 23 2010, 10:38 AM
I think one of the other reasons for that disconnect you may be feeling, Vačscent, is that if you post in Temple persona all the time instead of just as yourself, in normal topical issues or various social things, people may feel like they don't know you that well.
Freakin' this. You seem like a pretty cool dude, but I can't know for sure because I never know if I'm getting to know you or some persona. I'm closer with some of the newer members than with you because I can actually talk to them about normal things. It's your choice to be this Vačscent Volition persona all the time, but if you choose that, then certain conditions will stem from it.

:mercury_djinn: :mercury_djinn: :mercury_djinn:
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Sundancer
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Dracobolt
Dec 23 2010, 11:37 AM
Satty Claus
Dec 23 2010, 10:38 AM
I think one of the other reasons for that disconnect you may be feeling, Vačscent, is that if you post in Temple persona all the time instead of just as yourself, in normal topical issues or various social things, people may feel like they don't know you that well.
Freakin' this. You seem like a pretty cool dude, but I can't know for sure because I never know if I'm getting to know you or some persona. I'm closer with some of the newer members than with you because I can actually talk to them about normal things. It's your choice to be this Vačscent Volition persona all the time, but if you choose that, then certain conditions will stem from it.

:mercury_djinn: :mercury_djinn: :mercury_djinn:
Definitely this.

I remember seeing you around before, and you know, I had a bit of a similar case as yours - leaving and then returning a year or two later. In fact, you had far more connections here than I did when I went inactive, which I know is sort of a problem now that things have changed. The thing is, a lot of older members are in this situation, returning later to find what's different in the Temple. It's easier to connect when somebody's posting just as themselves, though, rather than a persona or something the whole time. I know the whole overthrowing Saturos/Sol revamp is important to you as it has spanned so many years and basically plays a huge role of who you were and are in Temple history, but maybe as Satty said, try to do other things as well? After all, the people who aren't involved in that won't be able to get to know you, and if you always post as if in a persona, we can't connect with who you are as a person.

You're always talking about how you can't seem to fit into who you were, like you've been left behind by time and can't get back and stuff. As if you have to be exactly who you were from before and somehow instill that character into everybody's minds - the ones who don't know it yet. Maybe you should try moving on - continuing that, but also establishing something new? Rather than bringing back these old things. I found it a bit strange to return as well, but I didn't try to put too much thought into it. It's easier if you just post without worrying so much about who you used to be and how you can possibly display that persona to its best. Nobody but you thinks you need to be Vačscent Volition, Sol usurper, so maybe you shouldn't think it's so necessary either. Get to know the community with some other ways, your personality doesn't have to stick to one character or stay so static. If you want it to be, you can try that, but you can't always expect people to think of you that way as time goes on. I'm pretty sure you've got more sides to you than this persona, but you're not showing us too much of it, mruuw.
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Gilgamesh
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solbowz Aurarius

Adding to this a bit, your current campaign about the eclipse. Interesting from an RP perspective? Definently so. To non-RPers? Not so much. Even from within the people that RP, it's not like your current event thing includes everyone. I know you're letting anyone in that wants, but for example, is there really a reason for me to join in? Not really.

Chances are when that event is said and done the people that posted it will indeed have a greater understanding of your legacy, but everyone else will be just as we are now.
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UltaFlame
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Thanks Poui.

Dracobolt
Dec 23 2010, 11:37 AM
Satty Claus
Dec 23 2010, 10:38 AM
I think one of the other reasons for that disconnect you may be feeling, Vačscent, is that if you post in Temple persona all the time instead of just as yourself, in normal topical issues or various social things, people may feel like they don't know you that well.
Freakin' this. You seem like a pretty cool dude, but I can't know for sure because I never know if I'm getting to know you or some persona. I'm closer with some of the newer members than with you because I can actually talk to them about normal things. It's your choice to be this Vačscent Volition persona all the time, but if you choose that, then certain conditions will stem from it.

:mercury_djinn: :mercury_djinn: :mercury_djinn:
I'm agreeing with this and am going to throw out that some of the 'divisiveness' (which I see less of lately) on my part stems from that it's hard to get to know some of the older people for largely the same reason. It may be that I'm a bit younger, and it's very true that I'm not the best at social interaction, but it always seems like they have their 'group' and it always feels like no matter how cordial or nice or friendly they're being, somewhere int he back of their mind they're saying 'oh, he's definitely young. Why is he even here?' So I'm never sure if I'm talking to the person as he would if I'd been here when that 'group' was forming.

I admit that I'm not always rational about feeling persecuted, I mean I spent over a year not even willing to give my gender I was so paranoid. Also I'm really horrible about putting feelings into words, so chances are what you read and interpret is almsot the exact opposite of what I mean, even though I'm saying it as clearly as I can think of.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

See what I mean, Val? Just something to think about. ^^

Luta, I don't think you have to worry about age. Maturity is more what I care about personally, and ability to hold an intelligent conversation. =P We were all young once, too. We know what it's like.
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Sundancer
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Satty Claus
Dec 23 2010, 10:08 PM
Luta, I don't think you have to worry about age. Maturity is more what I care about personally, and ability to hold an intelligent conversation. =P We were all young once, too. We know what it's like.
I think this. They put up with me, after all. =P

As for that whole "group" or maybe even "clique" thing, Ulta, it goes both ways. I think sometimes even if the older (by Temple age) members try to get to know the newer ones, it's difficult if the newer ones already have strong connections to other new members. The Temple's gotten large enough to the point of not being able to know every other person well anymore, I think. It's harder to be as personal and connected in a community as a whole when it's gotten so big, even if individual connections can be strong or stronger than they were before.
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Super Slash


YuleFlame
Dec 23 2010, 06:28 PM
I mean I spent over a year not even willing to give my gender I was so paranoid.
Wait what? You've revealed your gender?

So...what is it? >_>
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Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

Yeah, thanks everyone! ;D

I had already figured out this was the problem. As stated in the second to last post, I addressed I've been following a mostly top down approach, hoping my impressions would trickle down into the community as opposed to taking a bottom up, or as Saturos put it, "communal" approach.
Regardless, I want to keep the Eastering Eclipse arc going. I'm enjoying the epic - this is exactly the sort of the narrative I was looking forward to. I think I just need be more inclusive in some other respects. It's not revamp, by the way. Different story and some things were left hanging.
And you know, I'm not the only one driving it this time. I recall you saying that "it's always good to have a polyphony of voices contributing" in the Temple Commons thread, Satty. This idea was proposed by Adnarel when I linked him the old Terror Dragon vs. Saturos thread. He really liked that topic and was eager to start something new. Adnarel has own background, what with his character wanting more representation of the solar aspects of the clan as opposed to things that came about during Clan Wars like crystalmancy. Narrative-wise, both of our characters want to redefine the Sol Clan. We also took initiative in bringing back Faust, as he played a pivotal role in the last conflict.
It's been said the RP from the past was one of the first instances of freeform Templeverse in either the storytime or battlefield forums here, so I wouldn't say the Eastering Eclipse arc is completely exclusive.

As per "other" personas, wait for Frozen Candlelight to unravel. This Vačscent is a lot closer to myself. No burning desire to overthrow the establishment, all Chrysopylae... IN TEH BAY AREAAAAAAAAAA! I also have a character pending in Shades of Grey. I know I've acted differently enough in the past for others to take notice, but I suppose the persona you speak of is the most pronounced.
Another problem is that I have a tendency to not be "myself" unless I'm posting in SRS SRS BSNS or in threads like these. Lately, the mass majority of my posts have been going to Templeverse threads.

I see what you mean, Ulta. Myself, I never minded your feelings of being persecuted - it's sorta what I was addressing earlier about the need for more empathy on both sides.
Also, I've at times felt guilty for not being as open to newer Kradenettes. The other day, I spammed a conversation with God of Venus and Faust in the s-box, but with those who know me less, I limit discussion or am an obscure persona.
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