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Statement of Intent Revisited~; Let's get down to business.
Topic Started: Dec 3 2010, 07:53 AM (4,890 Views)
Super Slash


Adnarel
Dec 5 2010, 01:05 AM
Slash, shame on you for dragging this out
I know, but I can't help it sometimes. =(

It won't happen again, probably. I just had to vent on how much I, to put it as nicely as possible, am not very fond of him.
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Tange9t
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Spooky

Tsugi-tan
Dec 4 2010, 12:10 AM
I'd say lock it, I can't see it serving any more purpose. At this stage it's just gonna lead to more arguments, which I know is the opposite reason of why I participated in the original thread in the first place.
Even more-so now that what just occurred occurred. At this stage this thread's just going to derail more and more off the point. It's here to cool the [radio edit]ing and moaning, not cause it.
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Artemis
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Plus Ultra

Awh, man, it'll probably get locked now, but how I laughed.
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Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

This is like that time in grade school where a kid threw up in the hallway, and your teacher is trying to get your class to walk past it without gawking.

Move along. >_>
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simplechild
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My only feel is murder
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Super Slash
Dec 5 2010, 01:06 AM
Adnarel
Dec 5 2010, 01:05 AM
Slash, shame on you for dragging this out
I know, but I can't help it sometimes. =(

It won't happen again, probably. I just had to vent on how much I, to put it as nicely as possible, am not very fond of him.
Do that in a PM, please, if you are so inclined to express that feeling.

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Super Slash


Noted.
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Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

Tip: Do not post in this thread if you have nothing meaningful to say.

The recent turn of events is testament to Kuroi's point on the sheep syndrome and everything I was working to move away from in my last post. Despite me having pretty much having shut the door on the issue, you continue to talk about the past or respond to off-topic posts that should be taken elsewhere. With the exception of Silvy, you all began reacting to some of Jarnakel's petty comments that should hardly matter to anyone anymore. Did you all ignore me because all you're good at is derailing threads? Is it really that interesting? I know you're all better than that!

I'm trying to empathize here, but it's a little surreal how you all (not just one person) continued to post here while I was present the whole time. I was calling you all out from the s-box, and yet you continued to spam this thread up to a fifth page with meaningless posts. Sheep syndrome at its finest. I see some of you hold inner grudges towards each other, but it can't be that hard to confront one another privately. Take in what has been discussed here. Don't let it be an irony.

Regardless, I want this thread to remain open. I'm not giving up so easily as I've seen plenty of other topics of this nature be forgotten. I'm talking about REAL change as proposed in my last post. Given how no one bothered mess with that post, I'm pretty sure that if all the further contributions to this thread are worded with some poise... and, well, discretion, this will not derail again. And if it does, I will call you out again, using the very intentions/aspirations of this topic as an example to show your lack of respect. Closing the thread now will lead to closing the door on this subject, thereby allowing the some of the same things to recur again in a cycle. Again, I repeat, I've seen it happen too often.

Will this thread be the be all end it all? No, but I'm envisioning some sort of initiative spur out of this all and witness gradual changes over time. I hope none of you have any hard feelings for the more forceful message, because I certainly don't look at anyone any differently. And if you [the next batch of posters] must, please try to not to nitpick too much on this here. >_> The discussion is still about seriousness-opening up/empathy, what Kuroi talked about, and etc. This is still a collective "Statement of Intent." I'm confident we can all be chill about this. =D
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Super Slash


I'm really sorry about what I did earlier. It was technically my fault for jumping on Fluff suddenly like that.

But we had a discussion about it over MSN, so hopefully things will be good now and that won't happen again. Also, I don't frequently look at the Shoutbox unless I'm about to close the tab.
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Yun
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Malum Malum

Vačscent
Dec 5 2010, 06:19 AM
This is still a collective "Statement of Intent." I'm confident we can all be chill about this. =D
Seriously, I think it's you who needs to chill, dude. This sort of stop having fun post is precisely the reason nobody takes this crusade you and Jarn are on seriously. You guys seem to have taken the alleged overload of silly and swung to the opposite absurd extreme, demanding no silly ever outside of PG. That's not healthy for the community either.
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Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

>_> Yun, that's exactly why I typed "try not to nitpick too much on this here" in case the forceful tone of the post got to you. That was not the context of my post, and is somewhat contradictory if the goal is to truly lead to more empathy/opening up. I wasn't asking to cut down on 100% of said silliness. I refer to what I said about simple semantics and in-articulation before, too. Judging by one's overall impression of me and the previous posts of this thread, am I the type that would go for enforcing seriousness to death? Most would say no.

Also, a note to everyone watching from the sidelines: Don't be intimidated by the thread. Some have privately expressed to me that they agree with the message of this statement, "wished me all the luck in the world," but feel they have nothing to contribute. Nothing to contribute, to me, means the antics that caused the thread to derail before. If you have something other than that to say, by all means, express your opinion to the public! Be heard! It's against the point if we're alone on this.
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simplechild
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My only feel is murder
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
What I'm going to do is ignore all the parts where you accuse me (because you say "you all") of being controlled by sheep syndrome and spamming the thread with meaningless posts and lacking respect. I know that you're trying to get everyone to avoid addressing those parts of the post in particular, but the irony is hard to ignore.

I will instead address your last paragraph. Why? Because I can barely control myself to address the rest of that post in a kindly manner, which would count as derailing the thread from its original purpose.

Quote:
 
Will this thread be the be all end it all? No, but I'm envisioning some sort of initiative spur out of this all and witness gradual changes over time. I hope none of you have any hard feelings for the more forceful message, because I certainly don't look at anyone any differently. And if you [the next batch of posters] must, please try to not to nitpick too much on this here. >_> The discussion is still about seriousness-opening up/empathy, what Kuroi talked about, and etc. This is still a collective "Statement of Intent." I'm confident we can all be chill about this. =D
Here's what I think of the seriousness you speak of: it's naive. For example, the first Statement of Intent thread was a topic I avoided like the plague. I wasn't sure if the thread was meant to be serious or silly, and that is important if there is a message that is supposed to be coming across as a result. I can't take a message seriously if the message isn't worded seriously, and in that topic it was clear that it wasn't clear. Others couldn't really tell either, and then things got ugly once the confused posts started rolling in.
And then you make a topic like this, berating everyone for being ignorant to the proposed message that Jarn was trying to give out and treating it as if it was a completely serious topic that shouldn't have that level of spam. That is not the result of the ignorance of other users: that's the result of his treating his own thread without seriousness. He used silliness and expected everyone to understand the message clearly and see that it was completely serious, and, as a result, you received a predictable level of utter silliness. You should not have been surprised at the level of unseriousness, the spam, the confused posts, the bickering and the arguing. You should have expected it. You should have expected that silliness doesn't beget seriousness; it only creates more of the same. If that topic was to raise awareness about seriousness, it worked in the wrong way.

I think the idea of universal empathy in a message board is naive. I can deal with being sympathetic, considerate, and respectful, but empathy is pushing it. I can't put myself in the shoes of Jarn and Ulta, who take things more seriously than even I do. I can't put myself in the shoes of Boyd and Peytral, who once were targets of butt-monkey antics when I have never been. I can't put myself in the shoes of Adna, whose difference towards anime still baffles me. What I can do, however, is accept those differences. With respect, tact, and dignity.
I don't need to "open up" towards another person in order to respect their actions and avoid drama. We share connections with each other because we can either accept what's there or gain the understanding that you will never come to an agreement with someone. Sometimes, you may find that you will never come to good terms with someone.
Now, empathy in terms of MSN and PMs I can understand completely. Those are more private, more personable than message boards and social networks. Empathy is fine when it doesn't involve a lot of people. I think you mentioned that this change should be individual, and I think that is what you meant by empathy and I would agree with you on that point.

I think the idea of combating Sheep Syndrome is naive. I know that merely agreeing with someone else's post without adding more input can be aggravating at times, and I do believe it can be addressed somewhat, but I don't think that it can be handled effectively. I see the behavior in every Socratic seminar I've participated in, where someone makes one good point and the rest of the class spends 30 minutes explaining how they agree with that person. Nothing really gets discussed after that point, and it could be marked as borderline spam. But at least you know that there are people who stand by that viewpoint, and some people truly have nothing worthwhile to post other than their agreement towards someone else. So why discourage that behavior? At least it's better than actual spam.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

Yes, I agree that closing the thread is the wrong decision. Really, I agree with most of what Vaescent has said. I also don't think we need to mention any particular members in talking about what we don't like - if you disagree with something, talk about the idea instead, and not the person.

I think seriousness, or lack thereof, is not really the problem. But I know we've had a two-three year slide here of subtly jabbing at other members - Slash, the endpoint you found there is a perfect example of what I was thinking.
I mean, we all have people that we dislike. That may be unavoidable - but you can't just be catty and dance around the subject, taking potshots from the sides. You can't use a public place to demonstrate your leet verbal sparring capabilities as you have a flame-off with whatever member you happen to dislike. The reason this happens in public instead of private, is because people don't have an audience in private, and as such there's no huge crowd watching. Adna's analogy about the puke works well here.

I recognize I'm being a bit redundant, and for that I apologize. But I feel this is something that really needs to be addressed.
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Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

Hey, Simple, I agree with A LOT of what you just said.

First off, I apologize for the use of "you all" in that post. Yes, it is ironic, given that I actually typed that out of spite, a la, not showing consideration for each individual person. In the back of my head, I was referring to -some- of you, and do think that a few of the posts in response to Jarnakel (such as yours) were legitimate. I believe this was part of what Yun was trying to get at earlier, as well, but again, I was preemptively trying to hide it in the end in the process of attempting to shift focus back onto the future. In retrospect, that should've been edited off my post since I had already realized it by the time I wrote the last paragraph when I said "I hope none of you have any hard feelings for the more forceful message, because I certainly don't look at anyone any differently... if you must, please try not to nitpick too much on this here," and ended with a silly ">_>" emoticon. Initially, I was upset that some seemed to perceive this thread as only a direct response to the thread by Jarnakel and blow off the message of a post I put a lot of effort into. I wanted to almost entirely silence that tone.

That said, I still don't want to associate with the past and only see trouble dwelling on it. I (and I think Jarnakel now) have moved to completely separate this thread from the "previous one." As aforementioned, that had little to do with myself and I merely signed on with one single post because I agreed with what I've, for a long time, perceived to be the inner narrative of similar topics or of the people behind their creation. I did not anticipate for the topic to actually go anywhere other than set a tone or something. It was not meant to be taken seriously - to the extent of this topic - by anyone, and, well, TL;DR, refer to some of the previous posts in this thread by Jarnakel and myself. At this point, thinking of that thread as a precursor seems pointless. It should be noted that I created this topic under my own volition, and I, from the beginning (the opening post), did not want associate with the other topic too much other than draw some possible examples for a much broader subject matter.

I'm with you on the Sheep Syndrome. I did not explicitly call to combat it; I was just using it as an example for what I saw happening.

I think we're on the same terms when it comes to what I said about empathy. You expressed your agreement with me on the individual change on the last segment there and I think that's what matters the most. Being more sympathetic, considerate, and respectful on a big scale is actually what I had in mind, so perhaps I've been wording my message awkwardly/not expressing myself well enough here? It should, however, be noted that I personally find it easier than most to empathize with the masses underneath all the in-character jargon I typically exhibit. Of course, that's just me, and it WOULD be naive to try to tell everyone else to take it to that level or above. I totally see where you're coming from, Simple.

Saturos
 
I think seriousness, or lack thereof, is not really the problem. But I know we've had a two-three year slide here of subtly jabbing at other members - Slash, the endpoint you found there is a perfect example of what I was thinking.
^ Yes, if it wasn't evident by the previous posts, this supports what some of us have been trying to get at.

Lastly, everyone watching from the sidelines should NOT be obliged to type up massively sized responses as some have been doing. >_> I know that's also intimidating - and the thread won't be going anywhere soon were we to expect that from everyone. Again, this statement lacks much of its purpose if hardly anyone is contributing - it's a bottom-up thing. I, as the topic creator, just have a lot on my back to say. And, of course, I am VAESCENT! The DARING VOLITION!
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Silverpine
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Starry Knight

So, I guess the best thing anyone can do is just set a good example. When something mean or hurtful is publicly taking place between people, tell them to go private. When a thread's worrying you, tell staff about it. And whatever you do, be sincere and make that clear to people. I guess. It's easier for some people than others, but the rest of us can try and meet half way, right? To understand...

Bottom line: You can't force people into being sympathetic - it's impossible. :laugh: All you can do is remind and inspire people. I see people do that on this forum already (you know who you are, so I don't have to say who :heart: ). From their example, I'll try harder.

That's all I gotta say, really. It's a simple message that doesn't need much embellishment for people to take to heart. :gshappy:
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Ian889
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Death comes to all of those who oppose me.

I am with bliss on a balance between silly and serious. It do like larger groups of people, but I always did like the closeness of the people here. In larger groups of people though there tends to be more clashes and thus having to have a stricter set of rules which lends to my expressed opinion upon that. I think that we have had problems in the past and we will get through them as we have in the past, although I admit that it will be more difficult this time than in the past.
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Gwydd
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Eternity Awaits You and Me

Hi guys*, I'm back.

I just wanted to say that I think I contributed quite a bit to the confusion, partially because I was confused myself. I was playing along with the game of the first Statement of Intent, as I was in on it with Jarn and Val, but I also became very emotionally attached to the underlying problem we've been trying to address – essentially, respect – and I lost my respectfulness in trying to raise the issue, to the point that I fear I did indeed sound preachy and over the top. I jumped on my assumptions about Spella and brought that in as well, and brought this into her good-bye thread, which was not respectful in the slightest.

Taking a good five days off or so has done me some good with this. Perspective. I think the most important thing that I've taken out of this discussion, and that I've come to on my own terms, is that we should be observing ourselves, think if we would take our comments as respectful, AND ALSO think about the other person's situation, and if they would take the comments as respectful, before making posts that have direct emotional potential or could be potentially degrading. Just like in real life. Do unto other as you'd have them do unto you, but also as they'd have you do unto them. I certainly lost the very point I was trying to make amidst all this, and that's why I left for a while.

Statements of superiority, intense preaching, mudslinging, personal attacks – these are things that are and should be modded, but they really shouldn't have to be modded in the first place, because the people saying them should probably be more aware of the people they're directing the comments at prior to making them. We can all get heated, not the least of all me, but this is just as venomous as "chill it" comments – which we unfortunately conflated with silliness. Heat and Cold have equal potential for problems, and I think one of the difficulties in social relationships is finding a balance that doesn't send us through the roof one way or the other.

That said, many people here are practicing social-ness; in fact, I'd say that pretty much everyone here is, because it's a community, regardless of it being on the internet. When you participate in social relationships, even divided across the internet, it's a constant learning process, a constant growth. I would never say that I know everything, or that I have the best advice. I'm learning. But so is this whole damn world. We're all conversing, we're all making mistakes, and we're all learning from them. The worst thing I can possibility think of is being shut out, being ignored or told to shut-up, due to lack of experience, or past mistakes. Everyone should be able to speak, as long as they speak respectfully. That's the ideal community, I believe, and despite feelings of separateness in the past, due to being a middle-comer to the ToK, that's something that drew me here, because people were, and are, for the most part, respectful, despite silliness, and intelligent. We as a community are probably the most close-knit, thriving web-community I know, because of it – or at least amongst video-game fan communities. And we've even gotten recognition by Nintendo! We're not just some tiny, unknown fansite. We're a true community.

And communities make mistakes, just as the individuals who make up the community make mistakes. I'm not going to say what direction we need to go in, or what level of serious discussion of game elements, other fandoms, or other topics we're interested in, versus the level of jokes and silliness that go on here. Because seriously, I don't know how far we need to slide one way or another. But it's something I wanted, and still want to, raise awareness of. And I think I've achieved that, though there's been a lot of shit along the way, and it wasn't done in the way I, now looking back on it, would have desired, whatsoever.

---------
*and gals – I usually use guys androgynously, so I hope nobody takes offence to this usage.
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Fluff
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The Temple Asshole

That was inspiring.

*slow clap*
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

I think Gwydion put it nicely, and at the very least, in the kind of tone that I'd love to see more of. ^_^ I'm glad to see everyone is reaching some kind of middle ground, here.
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Fluff
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The Temple Asshole

...I wasn't being serious.
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UltaFlame
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Thanks Poui.

Oh, Fluff.

I'm not gonna make a huge rant about it, but I'd just like to post the opinion that there's not really an issue right now. I mean, yeah, things were wtf-worthy a while back, but in my opinion, right now, as Temple is, there's nothing really to complain about. There may be a slight uncomfortableness in general for some reason, but if so, I don't really think anyone's hit on the issue entirely. If at all, what's been talked about has been the effect to the cause that is the real issue. But I haven't really seen an issue lately. Quite honestly, this whole thing right here, right now, its appearance kind of threw me for a loop.
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