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Statement of Intent Revisited~; Let's get down to business.
Topic Started: Dec 3 2010, 07:53 AM (4,891 Views)
Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

I know I'm a few pages late, still feel obliged to respond.

Phoenix7
 
I just want to clarify about Spella's topic;

Spella's leaving topic was that her ideals changed and she no longer fitted here, not that we isolated her in some way. I agree with a lot of your points JM, but you're wrong to suggest we as a community drove Spella away from the Temple.

To say we have never driven people away is a lie (one Moderator actually left two years ago because she got unwarranted treatment from certain members) but this is not so with Spella.


Well, the way she said it implied, to me, that she felt isolated at the Temple, possibly because no one was taking the time to talk to her or anything. However, I admit I may have spoken in haste, and for that, I apologize.

Fluff
 
Well, it looks like it's time for another session of "Fluff uses big words, everyone nods like they understand and agree with him." If anyone is seized by the spirit of the lord during the course of my sermon, feel free to stand up in your seats and yell "AAAAAAAMEN!" or "Hah-ley-LOO-yah!" Speaking in tongues is absolutely encouraged, but please try to keep the volume down.

Now before I start for real, I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for Vaescent, and I highly value his opinion. That said, I can't find a single thing in the opening post that I agree with.

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I have no hard feelings, but what happened here is testament to one of the very reasons I signed onto this statement. It's not just about seriousness, it's about empathy. It's about being considerate, you know, understanding what you're dealing with and not royally blowing off what is handed to you.
Also, I'm aware of this notion of "wherever the wind blows, the topic flows," but some threads should be treated as inherently more serious than others. You can keep your silliness, but refrain from participating in such topics if you have nothing but foolish comments to contribute. In fact, you all are pretty good with that ethic in the storytime forum. Why can't you extend that? I'm talking in particular about practically all of my in-character, Templeverse threads in the ToK/Clan Commons section. For instance, don't "cool story bro" me. If you don't feel the least bit awkward saying stuff like that, I'm wondering what your impression of me really is. *eyebrow* Do you take me as a fool who types up stuff like that for the hell of it? There's disconnect in this community and I want to end it.


Now quite frankly, Val, I don't think that the first post of that thread could be taken seriously at all. If Jarn was trying to make a point, he did a very poor job of it. If you were trying to make a point, you chose a very poor place to start. Re-reading that thread, I see complete light-hearted silliness up until the very end of page 3 and the beginning of page 4, where Jarn and Gwee suddenly tried to start preaching.

You're talking a lot here about this hostility to Jarn and Gwee, but quite frankly that's just silly. Everyone was just screwing off in the thread and having a good time with them, no animosity attached. When they suddenly changed gears and started freaking moralizing at us, people got pissed off. You want empathy? Fine, you can have some empathy. You can have some empathy for the people who thought it was all fun and games, then were abruptly presented with a sermon about how we need to be More Like Jarn. I have absolutely no interest in putting up with that sort of dickery.

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Lastly, some of you have been VERY hostile to Jarnakel and Gwydd. I've been dealing with people blowing off my posts since 2006, so I'm no stranger to noticing familiar trends. However, this is different. The Temple is nowhere near as small/close-kit as it was back then. I hear a lot of hateful of comments going around. It's recurring cycle that's starting to remind me of my experience when I was recommended to post my fanfiction in the GSTLA social board in GameFAQs. The users there were getting so mad at me for "infiltrating" their board that they spammed my thread with their message. I tried that place again a year after I was modded for the second time in the general board. Some of the same people spammed my thread with more of the same.


I'm going to take the time now to revise a deleted post of mine to be a little less acidic and a little more constructive. Jarn and Gwee are confusing seriousness with SRS. Real seriousness is when you take the time to write a sincere and polite message to another person with the goal of communicating something important, possibly a little tongue in cheek, but essentially straightforward and open. My post to Sacra in her leaving thread was serious. If you want to communicate something to someone on the temple without any chance for misinterpretation (and without making a total ass out of yourself), you should use that post as an example.

Jarn, on the other hand, has a very bad history of negative seriousness. When I think of Jarn, I don't think of someone sitting down and trying to communicate with me. I think of someone entering a lighthearted thread and starting a fight over something inconsequential. When we say Jarn is SRS, we don't mean that he's serious, we mean that he will enter a friendly conversation and turn it into something humorless, unfriendly, and ultimately unproductive. That's what is meant when we say SRS instead of Serious. If you want an example, look at the very thread we're talking about. People were talking, playing around, and enjoying themselves...then he dropped the SRS bomb on us and everyone got pissy.

For reference, this is where people started getting pissed off with Jarn.

Do you want to know why the temple is unfriendly? Fine, here's your answer. It's not a lack of seriousness. It's an overabundance of SRS. Yes, it's true that people aren't communicating seriously. Instead, they're being SRS. That's, uh...not an improvement.

Sacra


Quite frankly, I'm very irritated with the lot of you. This little martyr complex of yours has got to go. You aren't contributing constructively to the temple like you seem to think you are. In fact, your behavior here is actively deteriorating temple society. Every time it seems like you might make for decent conversational partners at the very least, you go and do something like this, and I'm forced to admit that you're still refusing to grow up and play nicely with others.

Now go to your room and think about what you've done.


Oh boy. Here we go. For starters, I just went back and re-read the thread, and the only thread that could be considered preaching on those two pages was one Gwydd made on page 4, and even then, it was still mostly in the spirit of the thread. Looking back, the point the thread started falling apart was when the Fate/Reapist card was played, which I understandably took offense to. Of course you don't think the first post of the thread could be taken seriously at all, it wasn't meant to be. But apparently some people thought it was. But no, we didn't start preaching. Unless somehow saying that we thank whoever modded the thread for helping us infiltrate PG is somehow preaching.

As for the "SRS" "point" you make, I beg to differ... The only thing I can think of where you all thought I was getting upset over something inconsequential was with the whole username deal, which is not. It's a respect thing, and as was seen, I wasn't the only one who thought as much. As well, many of the really heated debates have not involved me at all. The whole chatroom debate comes to mind, where people got pissy because the java chat was suddenly a few pixels lower on the screen. I was not part of that. I was not one of the ones who made a big deal over nothing, and, in fact, I stated my opinion that the whole thing was ridiculous. As well, as previously stated, I did not go all RAWR over something inconsequential in the thread. Unless the Fate/Reapist card is somehow completely inconsequential? You say I have a history, and yet you refuse to give examples, while also ignoring the many recent occurrences which did not involve me at all.

As for Sacra, Bliss and others made my point better than I did. The constant quoting of that one post, without adding anything new, and without letting anyone know why it was being done, was completely uncalled for. I would even venture so far as to say that first post, in a farewell topic, was uncalled for. If you really have that big an issue, use PMs or talk to an Admin.

Martyr Complex? Where? Neither Vaescent nor myself are trying to make ourselves out to be victims. Vaescent has a single small area in his post involving himself, and really uses it only as a supporting point. My first post in this topic also has a mere two or 3 sentences about myself. the majority of both ouir posts were dedicated to pointing out how others were treated poorly. In fact, my post at one point specifically states that if anyone should have been attacked, it should have been me, and only me. Gwydd has left the Temple temporarily, yes, but not because he feels like a victim. He specifically stated that he realizes he needs to leave to avoid causing more issues, and I respect that. That is not making ourselves out to be martyrs for whatever cause you think we're going for, and I take offense to your baseless accusation. Next time, think about it before accusing, eh?

Vaescent and I realized there was a problem after the fiasco with the last thread, and we're trying to fix it here. Pointing fingers and leveling baseless accusations only exacerbates the issue.

I'd say more, but it might possibly be perceived as flaming, so I'll just end here.

Crash
 
I will post my thoughts here once and once only and then I am not posting at this topic again.

That last topic made no sense, since the first post in it was pretty obviously facetious (but apparently we were supposed to somehow interpret it as also serious at the same time?) and what followed was mostly just joking stuff, but then all of a sudden a few pages in people were actually debating about whether we should be "more serious" here. My first post of course showed my disbelief. If you wanted this to be an actual discussion it should have started that way in the first place.

Secondly, your concept of "adding more SRS to the temple" needs clarification. I mean, we have a whole subforum where you can have more serious discussions. Yes, a few people have made it so that it has to be in a hidden forum, and I wish it weren't that way, but that's how it has to be. Remember that the very concept of this place is based around a joke that a side character in a video game is a deity. Obviously, this place has always been intended as a place for people to have fun.

As for the Fate and Reapist comparison, I'd say "read it again" but the post is gone, but I did not compare you to them, I compared the stupidity of the topic to the stupidity of their topics. Heck, the topic was actually funny at first but when it somehow became serious after I thought it was supposed to be facetious, it became awful.


I know you said you're not going to come back. Still responding.

First point: The post is still there. Page 4. Seems you didn't even try to find it. At all. And I did read it again. While you don't outright direct it at us, it seems to imply that you are. And even if you were talking to everyone within the thread, the mere fact that you even played that card is telling.

Second Point: As has been shown, the thread was not meant to be taken seriously.

Thirdly, I don't know why you thought it was trying to be serious instead of facetious. I mean, you said that after Gwydd thanked whoever modded it for helping us into PG. How could you think that wasn't facetious? If it wasn't, we'd have been yelling at Admins to take it out of PG. You didn't clarify why you thought this, and I didn't respond, because, honestly, I was confused as to what you were thinking.


Now that I've got that out of the way... As Silverpine asked, what are we going to do to fix what's going on? Continuing to attack each other and make points and counterpoints will solve nothing. Posts like Grim's, whatever it was before it got modded, serve only to sow more resentment and discord. This thread narrowly avoided taking a turn for the worse, and we need to make sure that doesn't happen again. It shouldn't even have happened to begin with, really.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

Huh, could have sworn Were said he deleted that post, so I didn't bother looking for it. >_>
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UltaFlame
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Thanks Poui.

I'm not really going to take sides her, Jarnak, but if you're hoping to avoid future issues, it may be smart to leave paragraphs like that last one there out of your posts.
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Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

What? The last paragraph says we need to stop attacking each other and do something already.
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simplechild
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My only feel is murder
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think it's because you looked at perhaps two examples of attacking other people (perhaps including yourself in that example) to generalize the entire thread and perhaps the entire userbase.

I inferred this from that last paragraph, by the way. I have no idea if you actually did that so correct me if I'm wrong.
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Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

I wasn't trying to generalize the entire userbase, and the ONLY example I used was Grim's post, which was modded, hence using it to support my point. Said post was the point that the thread almost took a turn for the worse. This thread was not made for people to attack each other, but to figure out what's going on and deal with it, which is what the last paragraph is meant to indicate. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.

EDIT: I count Grim as a friend, and I'm sure he knows I wasn't using his post to generalize the userbase, or even him. The fact is, it happened, and almost set off another shitstorm, which is what we want to avoid.
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simplechild
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My only feel is murder
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Jarnakel Magnus
Dec 4 2010, 04:28 PM
I wasn't trying to generalize the entire userbase, and the ONLY example I used was Grim's post, which was modded, hence using it to support my point. Said post was the point that the thread almost took a turn for the worse. This thread was not made for people to attack each other, but to figure out what's going on and deal with it, which is what the last paragraph is meant to indicate. I fail to see how that's a bad thing.
I never said that it was a bad thing, but now I know what you mean by it.
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Silverpine
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Starry Knight

Vačscent
Dec 4 2010, 04:39 AM
Silverpine
 
So, now what? What are we gonna do now, that we're aware of these problems? Is it gonna be an individual thing?
Exactly. =D This is what I was hoping to hear be discussed. It's a little surreal how some have expressed the urge to close the topic when so much has been left hanging. Try to not to let petty things distract you from the focus of the topic. The first page of this thread in particular is full of wonderful feedback.

As per the individual thing, I was thinking something like that. I'm not entirely against designated forum moderators trying to do something about this (whatever that may be), but I'm more the self-moderation type. My point on opening up/empathy and things addressed by Satty, Peo, Vorlan, Lemu, Bliss, and etc., I feel, is something WE can actually work on.

Also, sorry to pull the "old-days" card, newcomers, but my memory of 2005-early 2007 here is incredibly vivid. The most drama I remember was when people were temporarily TL;DRing my RP posts. Other than that, we were, how should I put this... really innocent. >_> We listened to and showed a great deal of respect for one another without being told to do so. I, of course, fell inactive in the latter half of 2007, so I can't be certain to exactly why... but don't you think there's a good reason why others (not just me) like to reflect on this era? Maybe some good stuff to note took place in 2008 or 2009, too? I don't know. I'm not saying to go back in time; I'm asking if we can learn from what happened here.
These days, it seems simple semantics or in-articulation in our posts can get us into trouble/tear a rift in the community. Try to be a little more empathic/give the benefit of the doubt. This is an internet forum where practically the only way to communicate is via typing, so some of us may not be able to execute what we really mean as well as others.
Will do my best, then. You know, even with all this drama llama business going on, I still think ya'll are good people. So I have no doubt that we'll be alright. C:
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UltaFlame
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Thanks Poui.

My bad, I guess I meant the last sentence. Though maybe I was just too tired or something; it seems fine now. Eh.
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Fluff
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The Temple Asshole

Some day, we will look back on this and laaaaaaaaaaaaugh...

- The Staff
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Artemis
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Plus Ultra

Fluff, you really are intoxicated to the point of holy [radio edit]ing shit. XFD
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Super Slash


We all know what Fluff does for a living: tries to pretend he's mad on a forum with random internet people.
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Fluff
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The Temple Asshole

I also apologize to all the people who have to clean up after me.
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Fluff
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The Temple Asshole

Ah, the things we do when we're inebriated~
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The Grim Lich
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Legitimate Businessman

Super Slash
Dec 5 2010, 12:57 AM
We all know what Fluff does for a living: tries to pretend he's mad on a forum with random internet people.
If you can call that living. :eyebrow:
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Super Slash


Fluff, please, knock off the superiority crap. It's not even entertaining, it's just stupid.
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Fluff
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The Temple Asshole

[hilarious, but mean post]
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Super Slash


lolz, you hate anyone that disagrees with you. How very mature of you.

I know I really shouldn't be continuing this, but why in the heck isn't this guy banned yet? I've only been here for a few months and 85% of his posts that I've seen are nothing but trolling.
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The Grim Lich
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Legitimate Businessman

I'm still waitin' to see what Gwee-chan's response is. :3
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Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

Slash, shame on you for dragging this out and taking him seriously.

Also, post preview'd for The Mighty Fluffball.
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