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Statement of Intent Revisited~; Let's get down to business.
Topic Started: Dec 3 2010, 07:53 AM (4,894 Views)
Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

Previous thread: http://s9.zetaboards.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/topic/7250109/1/
~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Hey, everyone.
Before a mod comes to strike this down out of spite, I want you all to reflect on yourselves.

With the exception of a few, none of you bothered to look beyond the literal text - look at what the statement was trying to get at. Yeah, you got us. Now look ahead of yourselves. I can see why the first post was viewed as hypocritical, but I signed onto Jarnakel's plan because I agreed with the end narrative. I agreed that silliness has spun out of control.

I predicted the complete derailment of the thread while I would be away, but what I found today was appalling. Not only was the topic closed, but it was filled with some of the most ignorant spam I've ever seen in the last few pages. I've always had this view that underneath all the in-character jargon, we were all friends. I know many you deal with a lot of stuff in RL / come here to shoot the breeze, but try to control yourself some more please? O___o

I have no hard feelings, but what happened here is testament to one of the very reasons I signed onto this statement. It's not just about seriousness, it's about empathy. It's about being considerate, you know, understanding what you're dealing with and not royally blowing off what is handed to you.
Also, I'm aware of this notion of "wherever the wind blows, the topic flows," but some threads should be treated as inherently more serious than others. You can keep your silliness, but refrain from participating in such topics if you have nothing but foolish comments to contribute. In fact, you all are pretty good with that ethic in the storytime forum. Why can't you extend that? I'm talking in particular about practically all of my in-character, Templeverse threads in the ToK/Clan Commons section. For instance, don't "cool story bro" me. If you don't feel the least bit awkward saying stuff like that, I'm wondering what your impression of me really is. *eyebrow* Do you take me as a fool who types up stuff like that for the hell of it? There's disconnect in this community and I want to end it.

Lastly, some of you have been VERY hostile to Jarnakel and Gwydd. I've been dealing with people blowing off my posts since 2006, so I'm no stranger to noticing familiar trends. However, this is different. The Temple is nowhere near as small/close-kit as it was back then. I hear a lot of hateful of comments going around. It's recurring cycle that's starting to remind me of my experience when I was recommended to post my fanfiction in the GSTLA social board in GameFAQs. The users there were getting so mad at me for "infiltrating" their board that they spammed my thread with their message. I tried that place again a year after I was modded for the second time in the general board. Some of the same people spammed my thread with more of the same.
No, I'm not saying the Temple is at the level of GameFAQs. The comparison, however, should appall you. Open up to them, and vise versa, Jarnakel and Gwydd can take a similar approach.

~ Vačscent
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

I am Saturos, Leader of Sol and head admin, and I approve this message.
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Artemis
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Plus Ultra

The problem is that lots of people come here because it's a place they can escape the drone of real life. I don't want the Temple to become more serious. I would hate that, because seriousness at the Temple is one of the things that makes me want to leave.

This might be because whenever someone is serious about anything, it comes off as an enormous exaggeration of whatever problem they are serious about. It leads to e-drama, almost invariably. When people talk about making the Temple more serious, it comes off as extremely negative.

Perhaps seriousness needs to be redefined. Of course no one wants utter silliness; look at what happened with Sacra only a few days ago. But I come here to relax and unwind, and some days that's harder than others, and I really hate coming here. If we can work to change that, though, then by all means, lets try.
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Saturos
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heart-under-blade

I think "silliness" has become interpreted sometimes as basically "do whatever you want and if someone gets offended, it's their fault, since if you come here to have fun no one matters but you."
Arty, don't think because you happened to post in this topic this is addressed to you (dude isn't it like 6 am over there?). I don't want to name names, because that really doesn't accomplish anything. But I want to ask people to take a good look at themselves and decide if they are really treating other people with consideration and respect, as Val said. I'm not saying you can't joke around - but you should be sure that you're both friends in the event, and neither person has any malicious intent behind it (Were and Jenna's topic would be an excellent example of the right way to have silliness).

Vaescent, in regards to your guys' side of things, when you make a dramatic serious announcement in Templeverse character, and when tanks and other such things are used, people view it as an extension of an RP, like the silly fights that go on in the battlefield. If this has to be addressed, it would be a good idea to use civility and direct language as you did in this topic, so that we can distinguish between your persona and what you actually want to tell us.

I agree with the main thrust of this topic, though. Goodness knows I've been passive-aggressively trolled often enough lately to want to punch a few faces in. It would be nice to see a return to a more general kind of kindness - but I recognize saying that and making declarations won't do it, nor will making mod rules to punish people (although if we have to, we will). The ideal course here would be for people to each take it upon themselves to be kinder and more empathetic in their treatment of their fellow Kradenettes. Also, since I know we have several grudges simmering underneath the surface, I would like to call on those people to work it out privately in the realms of PMs, MSN, or Skype, whatever the case may be. I will be doing the same when I get a larger break from school. ^^;
Openness. Civility. Kindness. As basic principles, excepting joking between friends, these are the things communities are built on. These are more important than any divide between "serious" and "non-serious."
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Artemis
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Plus Ultra

Not particularly, Satty. I just posted here because it was easier to understand the intent and meaning of this topic than of the other one, which was just really confusing. I agree with the essence of the topic as well; however, if anyone's ever had a problem with me personally, they've never told me about it, and so I remain oblivious. I'm glad you made the distinction between being serious and being kind, at any rate; it's just that sometimes people don't seem to realize that what they're saying or doing could be interpreted any number of ways.
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Vačscent
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The Westering Sun

I fully agree with Saturos.
Also, Jarnakel wrote up the last topic and merely asked if I could sign on. Were it me, I would've opted for something along the lines of what I posted here. I'm quite aware it looked like an extension of the battlefield considering I'm probably the king of that. =P
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Lemubaby
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(_(_( ・ω・)

I think everything said so far has hit the head on the nail.

I still think of the Temple as a very close-knit community. I mean, some of you guys aren't the type I would associate with in real life, but here, we came together based on a common interest. When we take the time to listen to one another, we become closer, and we learn to relate with each other beyond the subject of the Golden Sun fandom. Everyone makes the Temple what it is, and it becomes a poorer place each time someone leaves for good. Even Fate, though wisely permabanned, will be part of our story and history.

We need to listen to one another.
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Vorlan
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*amusing user title pending*

Vorlan approves this message.

A bit of silliness is great for the Temple and helps keep things fresh and in PG that's great but some topics have to be taken seriously and listened to too. Mutual respect between members makes a forum a community and any initiative which helps to make the Temple a more friendly and respectful place has my full support.
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

I really have to agree with every point here, especially Satty. The kindness is starting to falter a little and the last time that happened, we got the wonderful venomous period of Temple, which not only me, but other members absolutely despised. I'm not saying anyone is doing this on purpose, but more just forgetting themselves and getting carried away, which hey, it happens. Not everyone will get along; there are members I'm less then fond of, but mutual respect and a level of sensible discussion is better then nothing.

It's good to have a bit of silliness in some topics, but people need to remind themselves that if it's not in PG, then they need to limit the derailment and, well, sometimes spam. You don't see the Snack Bar, a place to hang loose, being utterly random for example; everything has a flow and it's easy to read. Look at the News Annoucement Topics that had steadily been getting this sort of treatment; the NEWS ANNOUCEMENT BOARD. I ask you!

Have a sense of where you post and what it's for, y'all.

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Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

You beat me to the punch, Vae >_>

I don't really know where to start, because Vae made a few of my points already, so I'll just begin with the thread itself, and go from there. Anything Vae said will be avoided as best I can, no need to beat it into the ground.

That thread was obviously some sort of IC joke-ish thread. I mean, come on. As Sunny-chan said, in the very beginning of the post, I got off a tank, and my wording was obviously more of an In-character thing than anything else. Kind of like Vaescent's Westering Sun posts. It was meant to be sort of a distraction from the hostilities revolving around Dark Dawn and spoilers apparently being leaked, among other things. It was meant to be some random thing based on the lulzy false-divide between "srsness" and "sillyness," which I now see to be more real than I could have imagined, which, for anyone who knows me from, say, AE or RL (hai, Novercalis and Elvashar), is saying something. Sunny-chan was able to see it, because it was blatantly obvious. She even noted that it was a nice distraction. Hell, she even considered starting a countermovement. Tan also realized the obvious, and slipped into the ICing. there are a few others who I'm unsure of, but they at least remained civil. Why couldn't the rest of you do that?

While we're on the subject of the division and people being pricks for no adequately explained reason, let's take a look at Sacra. She was genuinely upset about something, and let you know this, as well as that she was leaving to avoid further emotional issues stemming from it. What did I see in her farewell thread? People posting things like "BAWWW THE FIRST TOWN IS NAMED SUCH AND SUCH, THE GAME IS RUINED," etc. Seriously, what? Even if it was because someone spoiled the name of the first town or whatever, she has a right to keep the game unknown until she has it in her hands. So what if this information has been known for awhile? Maybe she ignored it then. Logic would dictate that if she's avoiding spoilers like the plague now, she avoided them then, as well. She is also fully in the right. There are rules stating that Dark Dawn info stays in the Dark Dawn threads. That's what they're there for. I don't know why you all have to be pricks when you're the ones who didn't post the Dark Dawn info in the Dark Dawn subforum.

You are driving your members away, Temple. That tells me there's a problem. you are alienating new members. Attempts to incorporate the newer generations with things like the Heiden events have fallen flat, because they're not exactly explained beforehand, and the veterans always shoot down the new members. Then there's things like my thread, and Vaescent's Westering Sun Legacy. Apparently, if it isn't made by Meteor [radio edit]ing Werebarret or Jake Goddamn Delfeir, it's automatically stupid. Apparently, if there's any semblance of interest, it gives a Moderator cause to compare you and your fellows to be analogues to a moronic ToS breaker, and an illiterate wannabe hacker. I'm not naming names, but this actually happened. Yes, a Moderator compared Gwydd, Vaescent, and I, to Fate and Reapist. Does a place where a Moderator compares you to a hacker because you wanted to take people's minds off something sound like a place you want to go? A lot of people don't think so. Because it's not just new members that are leaving. Peopel are leaving to "calm down" in droves, and there are also older members that have left permanently, such as Spella.

So you come to Temple to have fun? Really? Because it looks to me like your definition of "fun" equates to "make other people miserable so I can feel better about myself." Personal attacks are on the rise lately, and as previously stated, there is a growing number of members who are not having fun. And I note that oftentimes, the people who say "I come to Temple to have FUN." tend to say so after a major shitstorm, and particularly in response to someone who is letting it be known that Temple is no longer fun. When I look at Temple, I do not see "fun." I see cruelty in the guise of "fun" and "sillyness". I see people who say they can be serious, and then shove anyhting that seems remotely so into SSB, where few members will ever see it again. Not so much anymore, but very recently, this was what happened. Gwydd noted that a lot of times, the "sillyness" would manifest as passive aggression, and when he did so, it immediately morphed into active aggression. Great job guys. He was pointing out that there seemed to be a problem, and appealing to you all to do something about it, and you viciously attacked him.

Speaking of Gwydion, who had a rather nice chat with the incredibly civil Sunny, a lot of people seem to be suffering under the illusion that he's done something wrong. After I made that thread, various people started attacking him, and in fact extended the attacks, implying that he was some sort of bumbling buffoon who always set things ablaze. Where did this hate come from? Gwydd didn't make the thread, I did! If you're going to attack someone because of a thread, at least attack the thread maker! My god, people. Gwydd didn't do ANYTHING. Unless playing along is a crime. But if that's the case, why weren't Sunny or Tan attacked? They also played along. No, the entire thing was my idea, the thread was posted by me, and yet somehow hatred was pressed upon Gwydion and Vaescent, of all people!

I can honestly say that the Temple is not a fun place for me anymore. But I come here anyway. Why? Because I care about this place, and I want to ensure that it endures.

I care about the Temple, even if each day I begin to care less and less about the people in it.

While there are many of you who are perfectly civil, many of you who try to keep things fun, there is a problem. A problem which keeps being ignored, swept under the rug, allowed to grow. I don't pretend to know exactly what it is, or how best to fix it, but something has to be done.

There, I've tried to make my points as coherently as possible on short notice. It probably wandered a bit and shifted at odd places, but eh. the basic idea is there. If you have any questions or comments, please post them in a civil fashion, because I will not respond otherwise.
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Lemubaby
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(_(_( ・ω・)

You have no idea how much Spella's statement of leave broke my heart. I never got to know her.

Whatever it is that we're doing wrong, I want to fix this.
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b l o n d e b o n d
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Wombo Combo

I really didn't understand the Gwydd hate either, but insofar as the last topic, if you don't start a topic with clear, concise sentencees, people will just assume you are being not serious at all. And since an RP entrance seems to be all the rage right now...
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

I just want to clarify about Spella's topic;

Spella's leaving topic was that her ideals changed and she no longer fitted here, not that we isolated her in some way. I agree with a lot of your points JM, but you're wrong to suggest we as a community drove Spella away from the Temple.

To say we have never driven people away is a lie (one Moderator actually left two years ago because she got unwarranted treatment from certain members) but this is not so with Spella.
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Silverpine
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Starry Knight

Satty pretty much stated my thoughts, especially with the manner at how the last thread got presented... I seriously thought it was some set-up for an event or battle of some sorts (especially the time limit - what was supposed to happen? :O I'm curious. XD). Lemu made good comments too.

As I'm reading through that thread, I'm STILL confused as to how it snowballed... Oh well. I bet a lot of other people are, too. All I can suggest to lessen the issue is for people to be careful readers and posters... And treat everyone like family. We are, right? I mean, this is the Temple! :O When someone's hurt by something you said, or angry, talk with them. Start a dialogue...


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Fluff
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The Temple Asshole

Well, it looks like it's time for another session of "Fluff uses big words, everyone nods like they understand and agree with him." If anyone is seized by the spirit of the lord during the course of my sermon, feel free to stand up in your seats and yell "AAAAAAAMEN!" or "Hah-ley-LOO-yah!" Speaking in tongues is absolutely encouraged, but please try to keep the volume down.

Now before I start for real, I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for Vaescent, and I highly value his opinion. That said, I can't find a single thing in the opening post that I agree with.

Quote:
 
I have no hard feelings, but what happened here is testament to one of the very reasons I signed onto this statement. It's not just about seriousness, it's about empathy. It's about being considerate, you know, understanding what you're dealing with and not royally blowing off what is handed to you.
Also, I'm aware of this notion of "wherever the wind blows, the topic flows," but some threads should be treated as inherently more serious than others. You can keep your silliness, but refrain from participating in such topics if you have nothing but foolish comments to contribute. In fact, you all are pretty good with that ethic in the storytime forum. Why can't you extend that? I'm talking in particular about practically all of my in-character, Templeverse threads in the ToK/Clan Commons section. For instance, don't "cool story bro" me. If you don't feel the least bit awkward saying stuff like that, I'm wondering what your impression of me really is. *eyebrow* Do you take me as a fool who types up stuff like that for the hell of it? There's disconnect in this community and I want to end it.


Now quite frankly, Val, I don't think that the first post of that thread could be taken seriously at all. If Jarn was trying to make a point, he did a very poor job of it. If you were trying to make a point, you chose a very poor place to start. Re-reading that thread, I see complete light-hearted silliness up until the very end of page 3 and the beginning of page 4, where Jarn and Gwee suddenly tried to start preaching.

You're talking a lot here about this hostility to Jarn and Gwee, but quite frankly that's just silly. Everyone was just screwing off in the thread and having a good time with them, no animosity attached. When they suddenly changed gears and started freaking moralizing at us, people got pissed off. You want empathy? Fine, you can have some empathy. You can have some empathy for the people who thought it was all fun and games, then were abruptly presented with a sermon about how we need to be More Like Jarn. I have absolutely no interest in putting up with that sort of dickery.

Quote:
 
Lastly, some of you have been VERY hostile to Jarnakel and Gwydd. I've been dealing with people blowing off my posts since 2006, so I'm no stranger to noticing familiar trends. However, this is different. The Temple is nowhere near as small/close-kit as it was back then. I hear a lot of hateful of comments going around. It's recurring cycle that's starting to remind me of my experience when I was recommended to post my fanfiction in the GSTLA social board in GameFAQs. The users there were getting so mad at me for "infiltrating" their board that they spammed my thread with their message. I tried that place again a year after I was modded for the second time in the general board. Some of the same people spammed my thread with more of the same.


I'm going to take the time now to revise a deleted post of mine to be a little less acidic and a little more constructive. Jarn and Gwee are confusing seriousness with SRS. Real seriousness is when you take the time to write a sincere and polite message to another person with the goal of communicating something important, possibly a little tongue in cheek, but essentially straightforward and open. My post to Sacra in her leaving thread was serious. If you want to communicate something to someone on the temple without any chance for misinterpretation (and without making a total ass out of yourself), you should use that post as an example.

Jarn, on the other hand, has a very bad history of negative seriousness. When I think of Jarn, I don't think of someone sitting down and trying to communicate with me. I think of someone entering a lighthearted thread and starting a fight over something inconsequential. When we say Jarn is SRS, we don't mean that he's serious, we mean that he will enter a friendly conversation and turn it into something humorless, unfriendly, and ultimately unproductive. That's what is meant when we say SRS instead of Serious. If you want an example, look at the very thread we're talking about. People were talking, playing around, and enjoying themselves...then he dropped the SRS bomb on us and everyone got pissy.

For reference, this is where people started getting pissed off with Jarn.

Do you want to know why the temple is unfriendly? Fine, here's your answer. It's not a lack of seriousness. It's an overabundance of SRS. Yes, it's true that people aren't communicating seriously. Instead, they're being SRS. That's, uh...not an improvement.

Sacra


Quite frankly, I'm very irritated with the lot of you. This little martyr complex of yours has got to go. You aren't contributing constructively to the temple like you seem to think you are. In fact, your behavior here is actively deteriorating temple society. Every time it seems like you might make for decent conversational partners at the very least, you go and do something like this, and I'm forced to admit that you're still refusing to grow up and play nicely with others.

Now go to your room and think about what you've done.
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

I will post my thoughts here once and once only and then I am not posting at this topic again.

That last topic made no sense, since the first post in it was pretty obviously facetious (but apparently we were supposed to somehow interpret it as also serious at the same time?) and what followed was mostly just joking stuff, but then all of a sudden a few pages in people were actually debating about whether we should be "more serious" here. My first post of course showed my disbelief. If you wanted this to be an actual discussion it should have started that way in the first place.

Secondly, your concept of "adding more SRS to the temple" needs clarification. I mean, we have a whole subforum where you can have more serious discussions. Yes, a few people have made it so that it has to be in a hidden forum, and I wish it weren't that way, but that's how it has to be. Remember that the very concept of this place is based around a joke that a side character in a video game is a deity. Obviously, this place has always been intended as a place for people to have fun.

As for the Fate and Reapist comparison, I'd say "read it again" but the post is gone, but I did not compare you to them, I compared the stupidity of the topic to the stupidity of their topics. Heck, the topic was actually funny at first but when it somehow became serious after I thought it was supposed to be facetious, it became awful.
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Artemis
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Plus Ultra

Quote:
 
Fluff's post

What I tried to say. 'cept it was six in the morning and Fluff is way better at this sort of stuff anyway.
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Adnarel
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I'd rather be outside.

I like the differentiation between "serious" and "SRS." I think if people bore it in mind, things would operate more smoothly.
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Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

Adnarel
Dec 3 2010, 03:00 PM
I like the differentiation between "serious" and "SRS." I think if people bore it in mind, things would operate more smoothly.
That.

Also worth noting that I agree with Fluff, for once. Which more or less shows just how ridiculous this whole thing is.
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Blissfulystoopid
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Temples' Resident Gaymer

Why the polarization between seriousness and silliness?

Everything needs moderation. The temple certainly needs more seriousness, the most interesting topics get derailed beyond belief with spam that could fit just as well in one of the spam forums. The temple IS rather exclusive against new members, in-jokes tend to discourage people, make them feel left out, and in an internet community, there's a high percentage of people who join who have low self confidence in real life, and join such communities because it's easier, and for them to feel left out like that, or even assaulted, is kinda sad.

That said, I didn't read most of the previous topic, because frankly, it was all over the place. I'm not entirely sure of what the tone of everything in that topic was, that's hard to read in text, especially when you decontextualize it, but as far as this topic goes, I side firmly with Satty and Vae. There's no reason to be disrespectful to people. Half of the people at this temple have had serious things go on in their life and turn here for sympathy, and how would you all feel if you were treated with the same hostility for that.

For those who don't like serious threads and just want to dick around, just avoid serious threads. For those who don't like dicking around, avoid the spam forums.

Then again, I've never involved myself with temple drama, (and I'm often absent enough that I don't even notice it until after it explodes, like just now) and I intend to keep it that way. So I have this one moderate post where I'm going to agree with the head admin and say everything should be kept in moderation, and hope everyone calms down.



By the waythat green llama is freaking TERRIFYING


EDIT: Also, having gone back and read Sacra's goodbye thread, a lot of you were really being hardcore douchey. Not all of us have the game yet, and what constitutes a spoiler for you may be different from someone else. While it doesn't RUIN the game, it changes the experience. I've had a number of MAJOR spoilers given to me in the past, and while it doesn't ruin my experience, the whole thing is irrevocably change. There's no sudden shock, it is instead replaced by "when is THIS going to happen!?" and unintentional tension. I too am going into this game 98% blind knowing nothing but the party members, and I intend to keep it that way. By your all caps vigorous logic, I'm a whiny douche as well, which doesn't quite sit well. I'm kind of ashamed of those who made fun of her on that front. Again, I read this out of context, because I don't really talk to Sacra and I don't know who has beef with her, but objectively looking at your posts, you're all entirely in the wrong there and incredibly disrespectful with the personal attacks.

I'm all for defending yourselves guys, and saying that you didn't think it counted as a spoiler, but to attack Sacra over it with a ridiculous argument is just mean spirited.
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