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Zelda fans!
Topic Started: Oct 2 2010, 02:37 AM (1,153 Views)
Gwydd
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Eternity Awaits You and Me

Mecha Kitty Table
Oct 3 2010, 03:19 PM
Ah, maybe I'm just a TP fangirl (Actually, I know I am) but I actually enjoyed it much more than say, Wind Waker, but mainly because the exploration in TP felt so much grander than the Great Ocean. Yeah, TP could have used a few more secret locations (it took me a good hour to climb the city wall and then all I got was a stupid heart container T_T, and then there was all the jumping in that one canyon for 100 rupees? Yeesh!) but the cinematics of the game were worth it for me.

And I'm confused by the distinction of RPG and Linear game: it doesn't matter how many times I play Tales of the Abyss, everything still happens in the same order minus the secret boss who you can gather all the items for right at the very end or much earlier, depending on your tastes. The main difference I see between Zelda and RPGs is that there's no party in the Zelda games or real weapon/armor upgrades (tunics and tools sort of count, but only sorta). Sure, there might be a paired battle here and there, but ultimately it's one dude all alone in the world, maybe with a horse and the game's token guide (Navi, King of Red Lions, Tatle, Midna, etc.). If you mean it in a way that you can PHYSICALLY go anywhere in any order? Sure, but that doesn't mean you can actually DO anything while there until the story visits that location (which it will always visit, unless this's Nam Cobana or Katz Island).

GCN > Wii for TP though, gotta have it on the system it was INTENDED for, no glitchy aiming, no big changes to the (admittedly easy) sword-play, and A PROPER WORLD MAP OH KRADEN I LOVED THAT OVERWORLD SO MUCH <3

Either way, if my brother DOES succeed in getting a wii by Christmas, I still have to start/finish Assassin's Creed 2 before getting my hands on Skyward Sword XD
You see, I love TP for all the same reasons. I really love how grand they made Hyrule. But at the same time, it was empty of secrets. I was really happy when I first discovered Secret Grottos during my first quest, because it added a dimension to TP that I didn't initially notice.

But the truth is, everything cool, save the Magic Armour, are main quest items that hardly get used. If the Spinner and Ball-and-Chain were ACTUALLY used to open up numerous more areas of the world, which held secret points of interest rather than just a heart container or some rupees, I'd be happy.

I think the thing that made me the happiest in TP was discovering the secret graveyard in Hyrule Castle. COMPLETELY pointless to go there, save for interesting story elements and some optional rupees.

The final dungeon was too sparse as well. I would have liked more challenges. The Dungeons were top-notch otherwise. But I long for the days when the final dungeon was vastly more difficult and larger than any other dungeon before it.


Don't get me wrong. I LOVE TP, and for the initial playthrough, it's the most fun one to me. Because I like story and character. It always makes me so happy to see Colin grow from being a shy and unconfident pushover to being a brave and heroic young lad, inspired by Link. I also think that Link is possibly at his most emotional in this game, though TWW would challenge that. Sister or close friends, both have strong ties.

What would I have liked more from TP? More and larger towns and details. Places that don't close off after they're used – like the secret passageway into Hyrule Castle Tower or the crawl-tunnel to Ordon Spring. More secret places like the volcanic cavern behind Death Mountain that you can get to via Clawshot. More forays into the Twilight Realm and more usage of the Light Sword (bring Twilight back to Hyrule Castle, so that the Light Sword is useful after it's dungeon – see, limited usage of dungeon items brought to it's par: a dungeon item useless outside.)

In fact let's look at usefulness of items:

Fishing Rod: Fun for one of the few truely pointless but satisfying minigames in the game. ****
Slingshot: Mostly useless after getting the Bow. I still used it to save arrows at times. **
Wooden Sword: Cool, but we barely have it before we lose it. Wish it could burn, tho. **
Lantern: Utilitarian at its best. I've always been a fan of the lantern items. Now requiring OIL! *****
Hero's Clothes: Classic. Useless (save to avoid the negative effects of the other two tunics), but classic. *****
Ordon Shield: Shields are always useful. If it burns, buy a Wooden Shield. ****
Ordon Sword: Swords are always useful. *****
Gale Boomerang: Useful throughout the game; one of the cooler items. *****
Wooden Shield: Even set with Eldin rather than Ordona! Replace the burnt Ordon Shield with this. Always useful. ****
Iron Boots: Always a useful item. Used throughout the game, and in new ways with the Clawshots. *****
Hero's Bow: Always a useful item. Used throughout the game, especially with the Bomb Arrows and Hawkeye. *****
Bombs: Always a useful item. Used throughout the game, especially with the bow combo. *****
Hylian Shield: Now that's something I can use the rest of the game. Too bad no Mirror Shield, tho. *****
Zora Armour: Finally, a water tunic/swimming item that works intuitively! Comparable to Zora Mask. *****
Water Bombs: Hardly used outside of getting to and within the Lakebed Temple. Still fun though. **
Hawkeye: Awesome and practical, especially with the Bow combo. Could be better controlled, tho. ****
Clawshot: Like all hookshots, used throughout the game, and really cool after getting the second one. *****
Master Sword: Now there's a blade that I always love. Swords are always useful, ESPECIALLY the Master Sword. *****
Bomblings: Hardly ever justifiably used, save before you can actually use them and you have to use live ones. *
Spinner: Possibly the coolest item ever, yet barely used outside of the Arbiter's Grounds. **
Magic Armour: Awesome yet impractical without completing bugs and poes as well. ***
Ball-and-Chain: Another cool item, yet rarely used. Sometimes a cool weapon, tho. **
Dominion Rod: Plot-required use outside of the dungeon. Only thing better than no use outside of initial dungeon. *
Horse Charm: Ummm… Thank you? Finally an instrument, and it helps somewhat, since walking to Horse Grass is a pain, but couldn't it be something a bit cooler? Like being able to call Epona to previously unaccessible places for Epona, thus unlocking new places requiring a horse? At least we got an instrument, but it's too little, too late. **
Light Sword: Awesome in the Palace of Twilight, yet impossible to use outside of the Twilight Realm. *

Notice how early in the game (the first three dungeons), the main items are cool and practical, but yet later on, the items become awesome, yet impractical. Moving Bombs are, as always, rarely useful, and the dungeon items move from being extremely useful to being never used.

The "equipment" so to speak – tunics and boots and swords – are gold as always. Now there's even a reason to wear the Hero's Clothes rather than alternate tunics. I have a feeling they set it up just so that you WOULD fight Ganondorf in the final battle wearing the Hero's Clothes, the Hylian Shield, and wielding the Master Sword.


I sound quite negative here, and I want to stress, I LOVE TP. But because I love it, I have to be able to know what I dislike about it as well.
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Admiral Miral
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The Light of Hope

Well, the games themselves were linear, but if you did the link cable/passwords thing and treat them as one game, you could do them in whatever order you wanted.

EDIT: Referring to the Oracles games.
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Fate
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Regis Knight: Lend Cideliant
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Yeah-Oracles were linear.

:mia: :isaac:
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Gwydd
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Eternity Awaits You and Me

Well, Oracles were linear, but a bit less linear than TP. I could explore areas that I wouldn't have to deal with until much later on, due to tools and clever thinking (such as using Pegasus Seeds+Roc's Feather to jump over Roc's Cape gaps). Yes, in many cases it was lineated (especially in Ages), but it was a bit more free than TP.
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Momentime
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uh oh

My point is, I don't think your argument of 'Zeldas should be sandbox' works when more Zelda games are linear than sandbox. If you want sandbox then go get something like Red Dead Redemption, Fallout 3, Dead Rising 2 (kind of), GTAs.
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Gwydd
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Eternity Awaits You and Me

No, but designers and fans alike have stated that's the best thing about Zelda: it's tendency to sandbox, even if somewhat linear. The ability to explore and go off the beaten path, even if it's not to Dungeon #5 before even Dungeon #1.

The Hyrule Fantasy, The Adventure of Link, Triforce of the Gods, The Dreaming Island, Mujera's Mask, The Mysterious Nut games to an extent, the Baton of Wind, the Mysterious Cap to an extent… and certain elements of the Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks, though linearity is dominant in both those games as well, so it's a strange mix.
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Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

Gwydd
Oct 3 2010, 04:14 PM
The Hyrule Fantasy, The Adventure of Link, Triforce of the Gods, The Dreaming Island, Mujera's Mask, The Mysterious Nut games to an extent, the Baton of Wind, the Mysterious Cap
Gwydd's argument now means nothing to at least 75% of the people it was intended for.
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Gwydd
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Eternity Awaits You and Me

The Legend of Zelda, The Adventure of Link, A Link to the Past, Link's Awakening, Majora's Mask, the Oracle series to an extent, The Wind Waker, The Minish Cap to an extent…


That better? I'm used to using the REAL names.
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Phoenix7
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Odyssey, ya see~ Odyssey, ya see~

TP did have an grand world, but I agree in that it lacked secrets, and the good kind. Getting ruppees and heart containers soon become bleh. Thankfully they want to rectify that for SS.

Also I was totally mad I couldn't get into the passageway through Telma's Bar to Hyrule Castle again after the first time. D:< Especially since I have a strong urge to rush through it all to

Spoiler: click to toggle
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Crash
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Wheey! I've became a human being!! I am very handsam!

If you want to really get into it, not one of the Zelda games is entirely nonlinear. "Later" dungeons require earlier dungeon items in even the first game.
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Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

Gwydd
Oct 3 2010, 04:36 PM
That better? I'm used to using the REAL names.
Saelnaha starts to understand why Fluff enjoys tormenting Gwydd so much...
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Gwydd
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Eternity Awaits You and Me

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to sound like it was a sin to use the American translations. I just find it sort of ridiculous the hoops NoA jumped through to avoid religious references. And just like I like to say Book I: The Broken Seal for the original Golden Sun game, I like to call the original Legend of Zelda title by it's subtitle – The Hyrule Fantasy.

Is it so much of a problem that I'm used to writing them the close translation rather than the changed title?
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Admiral Miral
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The Light of Hope

Most people play the NA versions and wouldn't know the original title offhand? Everyone knows what you're referring to when you use the NA version, but not everyone does when you use the JPN one.
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Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

Miral
Oct 3 2010, 05:02 PM
Most people play the NA versions and wouldn't know the original title offhand? Everyone knows what you're referring to when you use the NA version, but not everyone does when you use the JPN one.
This more than anything, yeah? And just because I happen to know what you mean for the most part doesn't make it any less annoying.

It's also worth noting that using the original Japanese titles defaults to coming across as declaring the use of American titles a sin, simply because a vast majority of people who do so (I'm willing to bet 90% or more) DO consider the American titles a sin, yeah?
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LSunnyC
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The Fallen Duchess

PLEASE not another discussion about Gwee's preference for Japanese names!

Getting to the last relevant post on the matter of items, I have two ways of looking at items like the Ball and Chain (At the moment I can't remember what the Rod of Dominion did D: ) and spinner.

One the one hand, it's a bit of fail on the part of the developers. A counter to that is the one canyon where you have to not only notice the spinner tracks but then jump back and forth- it was both fun and made someone like me wonder whether the same technology in Arbiter's Grounds had been used to construct the road through the mountains. Shameless worldbuilding, but I wanted more than just an orange ruppee at the top of the cave: even a golden bug would have been better.

But if we put aside sadness with the dev team, then isn't the uselessness of those items part of the charm? They're relics the Hero picked up on his journey, stuff he found and was like "Hey, I can use dis!" while trapped in an ancient prison/abandoned manor house/etc. Neither item is actually a weapon, or at least not one a puny little elf-boy can use (lol ball and chain) but he keeps them anyways, sort of like how the mayor had those metal boots in his closet that he hadn't used in decades. I choose to think of it as a nostalgia factor, of the hero/gamer looking back after the adventure and going "Wow, look at all the weird stuff I picked up!"

I definitely wanted more secrets, like the dead Zora queen which made me "d'awwww~!!!" so badly and then you find her son <3. Rebuilding the bridges made my day too, more or less because now I could ride Epona/Run as a wolf clear around Weyard Hyrule and get lost in the scale of the world.

Besides, who else doesn't get a kick about imagining Link carrying the Iron Boots, Ball and Chain, AND the Spinner around with him at all times? Though if I were Midna I would have hidden in his hat like Navi instead of up his tunic like a little perv ._.
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Sabre Dance
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Gwydd
Oct 3 2010, 12:08 PM
TP is too linear, and that's a problem.
Frankly, I found it very non-linear. This is just my opinion, mind you.

The story itself is pretty great, and although it lacks the awesome side quests that oh say, OOT had, I've still spent more time dicking around finding random treasure chests and playing the minigames and essentially wasting time than actually doing trying to beat the game.

My first playthrough was pretty linear, I'll admit, but once you get to the point in the game where you have access to all the provinces, it gets deadly fun for dicking around. There's TONS of secret areas, and they're all a lot more sophisticated than the ones in Ocarina of Time (although OOT is still my favourite), not to mention the challenge of trying to find all the secret hiding places for chests. There's just so much shit you can do if you want to.

As for being too linear, compare Twilight Princess to Link To The Past. If memory serves, that was a pretty dammed linear game.
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Fate
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Regis Knight: Lend Cideliant
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They need to make another Ocarina of Time style game...

:mia: :isaac:
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Tlephle

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Bumping to post this pretty cool (and long, hence the spoiler tag) picture.

Spoiler: click to toggle
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HyrulianJedi
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uguu~
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Sabre Dance
Oct 3 2010, 10:43 PM
As for being too linear, compare Twilight Princess to Link To The Past. If memory serves, that was a pretty dammed linear game.
LttP was linear in the order you had to do the Light World dungeons, yeah, but you could explore a hell of a lot of places in between them. And once you get to the Dark World (and finish the first dungeon there), exploration and dungeon order gets ridiculously non-linear. Yeah, you might not be able to finish all the dungeons, but you can get to them fairly early. IIRC, the second, third, and fourth are all accessible after finishing the first.

And you can go get secret items for exploring, such as the Magic Cape, the Ice Rod, a couple medallions, and one of the Canes. And that's not counting the various upgrades, like the Tempered Sword, the Red Boomerang, the Fire Shield, and various stat or capacity upgrades.
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