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Pokemon Tournaments!; In my Temple? More likely than you think,
Topic Started: Sep 26 2010, 11:49 PM (3,998 Views)
Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

Ugh, text logs. I'll consider it as an option, but most people are going to want to use their games they have on hand, instead of doing some extra work to put their teams into the simulators... Might be able to incorporate it, but IDK.
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Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

I for one would honestly consider boycotting the whole thing if we decided on that route, simply because.
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Nakun


@ Jarnakel,

No offense intended if you took my suggestions to be along the lines of "everything you're doing is wrong." That's not my point, I understand you are working out the issues to maximize fun (the real point of any game) and I am only offering my insights as to how best to do that. Understandably you got upset at comments like, "Oh I can't use my Skarmony then," (just one example I recall from when I read this last night...) There have been people who have put words into your mouth, however, I haven't been one of those.

On my point 3, I have never wifi-ed over D/P/Pt, if they have auto level up to 100, then you should definitely use that over the simulators. I agree very much with your point that going through text logs is a nightmare and I have had trouble with my entire text logs saving sometimes, which would only confound the issue.

On my point 4, again, you are running into the subjectivity/ objectivity issue. Firstly, even with a panel of people reviewing videos, you are entering opinion into the decision, something that is very hard to avoid (I'm sure we all can remember a time when a referee made a poor call and it really irked us.) Secondly, you have little control over what people read and penalizing everyone because smogon exists is bad. What I mean is, Some one could, of their own volition, come up with a set that is identical or nearly so to a somgon set for that particular pokemon. Such a person should not be punished for their insight. You don't want to condemn strategy, but you are adamant about not using the largest compilation of pokemon strategy on the internet - I do not understand this. If you want to run Electivire instead of Jolteon or still use Heracross, do so. I do and I beat out the metagame consistently because it is not prepared for it. The metagame, while focusing on statistics also is affected by human choices and choosing to diverge from it in key aspects can only help. No one on smogon says that you can't do X. They simply point out that there may be a better choice you could make given certain mathematical factors. If people don't care about this, that's fine. I don't listen to all of the advice I get from smogon, or anyone, I make my own decisions. You have to realize that conceding that there is some logic behind the metagame does not mean conceding that it is the be-all end-all of pokemon.
You talk about boosthax, something I've never heard reference to. I assume you mean you want to avoid have DD Garchomp, or something similar, rule the day (a fair objective.) However, boosting stats isn't unfair in any way. Is it really hard to take down a bulky DD Gyarados without resulting to something equally as competitive, yes. I will not deny that. If you want to ban all stat boosting moves, that's alright, but this is an odd choice and will only serve to centralize your tournament towards the pokemon with the highest base-stat totals (ie legendaries and things like Garchomp and Metagross) because these pokemon then become the most efficient to use and in some cases the only viable pokemon to use.

Finally, I understand that there is a large concern for people playing for fun against people who play to win. Smogon understands this too, if I may reference this thread: Smogon's Policy on Creativity. I don't think a point buy system hampers the fun of things, but rather stops someone from being entirely unreasonable and saying, "Mah favorite pokemans EVAR are Arceus, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Palkia, Darkrai, and Giratina! I will pwns all of you n00bs with my Uber-tastic faves!" Do I think someone here would do this, no. Most people here are more mature than that, but I can see something similar with a less apparent unbalancing occurring. If I may quote Thoreau here, "...and I do also believe the natural extension of this, that that government which governs least, governs best, and when man is ready for such a government, that is the government he shall have. But men are not angels..."
I understand that the Tournament of the Heart is trying to avoid knowledge of the metagame, but smogon has put a large amount of time and effort into analyzing the game and it would be unwise to ignore it. By taking it into consideration, I think you can only help to improve your tournament for everyone involved.

It may possibly be best to limit persons not to one team per tournament, but rather to limit each person to only entering one tournament. This would be drastic, but it might be the solution that maximizes fun for everyone. The most important thing to remember is that POKEMON IS A GAME, HAVE FUN. The ability to have fun stems most from the attitude of people involved, as you have already hinted at. I have had battles against someone who completely outclassed me and was able to counter every move I made, and after the battle, we had a conversation about strategies and cool things that happened and both grew from it. I have also had battles against complete assholes who only comment things like, " [radio edit] (pokemon just defeated after each KO)" and those are the worst. I have also had battles where I have been on top, and have had enjoyable conversations during and after them pointing out mistakes made on both sides and enjoying the complements I received for my team building innovations.

Again, I wish you well in your endeavor. I will be around to offer opinions, which you never have to listen to. Sorry I am on a schedule that is sporadic as compared to others'.
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Infinion
The End

Hakurei
Oct 30 2010, 05:16 PM
Ravenbolt
Oct 30 2010, 04:29 PM
Because most of the players here aren't Metagamers.
Standard UU?

IDK
There's always a choice of mixed tier teams, meaning 2 OU, 2 UU, and 2 NU but I find a lot of people don't like that.
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Gwydd
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Eternity Awaits You and Me

Point Buy requires people to look at Metagame rules, which is not what we want. A lot of people just don't like the Metagame at all, and just want to play the way they decide.

That is the idea behind some of these tourneys.
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The Grim Lich
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Legitimate Businessman

Nakun
Oct 30 2010, 11:38 AM
@Insularity
Point Buy doesn't have to be some complex issue like I want Outrage on my Garchomp so that cost me 7 of my 80 points, but I've already used up 75 points, so I guess I'll have to go with Dragon Claw. In fact, it should not be like that at all. I agree, that is a terrible idea you will kill yourselves with math and reviews and junk that doesn't need to come up. Here's a point buy example that seems it may be simpler:

Each person gets 10 points.
Ubers cost 4 points
OU cost 3 points
UU cost 1 point
NU are free
Not Fully Evolved(1st Stage) are free

You can change the numbers around if you want (You could go 5/3/2/1/Free for another example), but that's as complex as it has to be.
One slight problem. I'm going to use myself as an example for this one. I don't like the idea of being forced to change around my team just because I have to guy some sort of tier-based point system of [radio edit]ery from some metagame-humping website. So... naturally I wouldn't be participating in the Metagame Tourney. And this would be fine for that. Restrictions breed creativity, yadda yadda. But I wouldn't want metagame-style restrictions to be leveled on a casual tournament. It makes it feel... too metagame. It's like playing Brawl without items. You could, but that's missing the mother[radio edit]ing point unless you're in some stupid professional tournament where they [radio edit] about items.
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Gwydd
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Eternity Awaits You and Me

^^ And it's people like this that the casual tourneys are catering to.
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Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

Kamen Rider Grim
http://s9.zetaboards.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/single/?p=8176093&t=7236798
But I wouldn't want metagame-style restrictions to be leveled on a casual tournament. It makes it feel... too metagame. It's like playing Brawl without items. You could, but that's missing the mother[radio edit]ing point unless you're in some stupid professional tournament where they [radio edit] about items.
This is pretty much my opinion on that matter...
Gwydd
http://s9.zetaboards.com/The_Temple_of_Kraden/single/?p=8176118&t=7236798
^^ And it's people like this that the casual tourneys are catering to.
...which is why I'm glad for this.
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Lemubaby
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(_(_( ・ω・)

We should have someone judge the level of a team via PM who isn't going to compete, imo.
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Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

What do you mean by that? If you mean the actual level, it doesn't matter. They'll all auto-level to level 100.

Also, Nakun. I see your post and have read it. I will respond to it later, when I have time to put together a proper response, to lower the risk of being misinterpreted.
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Kula Diamond
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atlus tracts

If i were to enter the casual tourney, could i minmax a party of 6 crappy NFEs (Think Magikarp, Kakuna and others) for lulz?

Of course, i won't be actually entering unless Simulators are allowed (lol no wi-fi)
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The Grim Lich
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Legitimate Businessman

*brofists Stebe*

EDIT: GAH! GODDAMN AVATAR OF GIRLS.
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Gilgamesh
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solbowz Aurarius

Yeah I'm (sorta not really because I'm lazy/busy) training four extra 'mons for that one tourney where we get 10 (even though I'll lose that one for sure) for the fun of it, but if I have to change anything with my core six because of some weird-ass system I'm out; I got other things to do with my time.
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Nakun


I'm going to start on this and probably be late to class, but oh well.

@Gywdd:
For point buy you don't have to look at the metagame rules, by rules I mean the clauses and statistical analysis of the metagame. I know you have to look at the tiers, but that shouldn't make you so upset. The tiers are just like baseball statistics, would you not look at those because it would make you mad to see that your teams pitcher had a poor at bat average? I don't think that would make you upset, so I don't see the problem of looking at the tiers.

@Kamen Rider Grim:
I'm a little lost, because you start out sounding like you don't want to change your (competitive) team. But, this obviously isn't the case. I bring this up because it makes me worried. The point buy shouldn't be an issue with rearranging in game teams, most of them will conform to it, barring the fact that you use like 3 legendaries on your team. The point buy is there to force competitive players to reform their team too make it more fair to you.

Yeah. I suppose I'll see what people have to say about this later today (probably around 4.) As to Lemu's suggestion, I would be willing to look at people's teams to look for fairness flaws, as I don't have time to raise and compete. Although, I'm gathering that you all won't like the way in which I judge for fairness. It will be just by what pokemon you have. I'm not going to look at movesets and be like, "Oh billy entered Gyarados with Substitute, Dragon Dance, Toxic, and Thunderbolt, that's not very effective...We must now lower all pokemon to this pokemon's effectiveness!" That sort of lowest common denominator won't work in this situation and shouldn't be considered.
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The Grim Lich
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Legitimate Businessman

Nakun
Nov 1 2010, 09:50 AM
I'm going to start on this and probably be late to class, but oh well.

@Gywdd:
For point buy you don't have to look at the metagame rules, by rules I mean the clauses and statistical analysis of the metagame. I know you have to look at the tiers, but that shouldn't make you so upset. The tiers are just like baseball statistics, would you not look at those because it would make you mad to see that your teams pitcher had a poor at bat average? I don't think that would make you upset, so I don't see the problem of looking at the tiers.

@Kamen Rider Grim:
I'm a little lost, because you start out sounding like you don't want to change your (competitive) team. But, this obviously isn't the case. I bring this up because it makes me worried. The point buy shouldn't be an issue with rearranging in game teams, most of them will conform to it, barring the fact that you use like 3 legendaries on your team. The point buy is there to force competitive players to reform their team too make it more fair to you.
OK, I'm going to respond to both of these points, because it seems like you missed my point, and are comparing apples and potatoes. At least oranges are still fruit.

Anyway, first things first. The whole thing with the tiers is that they don't exist in-game1. You don't hear NPCs talk about NU or OU or VU or whatever other [radio edit]ery there is in that tier system bullshit. They're a construct created by the metagame to judge Pokémon. In fact, I actively refuse to look at these "tier lists" because it feels like someone's trying to ram their ideas of what 'mons are "good enough" or "too good" or "piss-poor" down my throat — like they're trying to enforce an average upon me.

Secondly, I love how you assume that I have 3 legendaries on my team and it's a fact. As if I'd use pokémon that far over my average level in a standard team. Or under, by this point in the game; my Platinum team (which I would be using for this) has gotten pretty big, level-wise. Not quite up to 100 yet, but I'm in the mid-70s. :3 And each one raised with love and care. And a liberal amount of battling. Seriously, Garchomp [radio edit]ing owns, and I love it. Unless I have to face one2! :P

There's one last point I want to make. And that's to your last point, about forcing "competitive" players to make it fair to us. That sounds like it's going against the spirit of the casual tournament. It's not an effort to force metagamers to play in a casual style — if they don't want in that one, they don't have to [radio edit]ing enter. The rules presented (with certain exceptions, because I'd love to fight a team full of Woopers — it'd kick ass to see that in action) are there because it's meant to be fun. And if that's not your idea of fun, there's a simple solution, one I mentioned above. The problem is, the metagamers have been complaining about the casual tournament because they seem to think they're required to enter it. That isn't true. At all.



1. This sentence is grammatically correct. The "is" refers to "the whole thing", which is singular.
2. I'm just kidding. It's still totally wicked. I just have a harder time beating him. :3
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Kula Diamond
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atlus tracts

Kamen Rider Grim
Nov 1 2010, 01:10 PM
In fact, I actively refuse to look at these "tier lists" because it feels like someone's trying to ram their ideas of what 'mons are "good enough" or "too good" or "piss-poor" down my throat — like they're trying to enforce an average upon me.
Except without Tier lists, the game would be nothing but a Kyogrefest. In fact, tier lists CREATE variety. No one is forcing you to use a 6 OU team, even in the standard OU metagame and there are UUs that do just fine in OU (Clefable was so good in the Gen4 meta it's almost funny). Also, your post implies junk like Entei is on the same level as Metagross and stuff.
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The Grim Lich
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Hakurei
Nov 1 2010, 01:21 PM
Kamen Rider Grim
Nov 1 2010, 01:10 PM
In fact, I actively refuse to look at these "tier lists" because it feels like someone's trying to ram their ideas of what 'mons are "good enough" or "too good" or "piss-poor" down my throat — like they're trying to enforce an average upon me.
Except without Tier lists, the game would be nothing but a Kyogrefest. In fact, tier lists CREATE variety. No one is forcing you to use a 6 OU team, even in the standard OU metagame and there are UUs that do just fine in OU (Clefable was so good in the Gen4 meta it's almost funny). Also, your post implies junk like Entei is on the same level as Metagross and stuff.
Wait. Are you saying that I'd begin playing the game with 6 Kyogres on my team and nothing else? Because that's honestly what it sounds like. And that team would suck donkey balls.
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Kula Diamond
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atlus tracts

Kamen Rider Grim
Nov 1 2010, 02:03 PM
Wait. Are you saying that I'd begin playing the game with 6 Kyogres on my team and nothing else? Because that's honestly what it sounds like. And that team would suck donkey balls.
I meant all teams would be geared to abuse Kyogre's insta-rain like mad. As in, all teams would be extremely similar every single [radio edit]ing time. Tiers prevent this from happening.

Also, before you say people canned luncheon meat the 6 top OUs, players who do that most of the time don't even know how to use them.
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The Grim Lich
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Hakurei
Nov 1 2010, 02:22 PM
Kamen Rider Grim
Nov 1 2010, 02:03 PM
Wait. Are you saying that I'd begin playing the game with 6 Kyogres on my team and nothing else? Because that's honestly what it sounds like. And that team would suck donkey balls.
I meant all teams would be geared to abuse Kyogre's insta-rain like mad. As in, all teams would be extremely similar every single [radio edit]ing time. Tiers prevent this from happening.

Also, before you say people canned luncheon meat the 6 top OUs, players who do that most of the time don't even know how to use them.
I wasn't going to. You're missing the point of what I said. My point wasn't that I care particularly about the metagame. My point was that the casual tournament is meant for the kind of player that doesn't give a flying [radio edit] about the tier lists, which means no, you won't see the "top 6 OU" or whatever 'mons canned luncheon meatming up the lists unless people like to [radio edit]ing use them, in which case tough shit. If you want to institute point buy or UV Only or EV FoM SPQR or whatever metagame only rules you want in the metagame tournament, I. DON'T. CARE. But the casual tournament isn't the place for that, in my opinion. And the casual one is the one I'm concerned about because the metagame people seem to be complaining that the casual people are going to act like metagamers getting drunk and throwing a "[radio edit] the rules" party. WHICH. WE. AREN'T. We just want to play with the 'mons we like without having to look up tier lists to see if we're allowed.
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Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

Kamen Rider Grim
Nov 1 2010, 03:09 PM
Hakurei
Nov 1 2010, 02:22 PM
Kamen Rider Grim
Nov 1 2010, 02:03 PM
Wait. Are you saying that I'd begin playing the game with 6 Kyogres on my team and nothing else? Because that's honestly what it sounds like. And that team would suck donkey balls.
I meant all teams would be geared to abuse Kyogre's insta-rain like mad. As in, all teams would be extremely similar every single [radio edit]ing time. Tiers prevent this from happening.

Also, before you say people canned luncheon meat the 6 top OUs, players who do that most of the time don't even know how to use them.
I wasn't going to. You're missing the point of what I said. My point wasn't that I care particularly about the metagame. My point was that the casual tournament is meant for the kind of player that doesn't give a flying [radio edit] about the tier lists, which means no, you won't see the "top 6 OU" or whatever 'mons canned luncheon meatming up the lists unless people like to [radio edit]ing use them, in which case tough shit. If you want to institute point buy or UV Only or EV FoM SPQR or whatever metagame only rules you want in the metagame tournament, I. DON'T. CARE. But the casual tournament isn't the place for that, in my opinion. And the casual one is the one I'm concerned about because the metagame people seem to be complaining that the casual people are going to act like metagamers getting drunk and throwing a "[radio edit] the rules" party. WHICH. WE. AREN'T. We just want to play with the 'mons we like without having to look up tier lists to see if we're allowed.
This. You all keep trying to make your points with metagame terminology, and implying that people who KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE METAGAME will somehow act as if they do and use the lack of tiers or whatever to sweep aside everyone else.

No. As Grim said, the casual tourney is exactly that. CASUAL. It's for people who care nothing about EVs, who don't set up their teams to take advantage of each other. The example of teams being set up to abuse Kyogre's rain? Not going to happen. Most of these teams will have at most 1 water pokemon, in which case constant rain will likely hamper them. These are not metagamers, they're not going to be setting up rain hax, or solarbeam hax, or dual screen + Subseed, or whatever the hell. Because they don't give a flying [radio edit] about the metagame.

Thank you, Grim.
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