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| The Anime/Manga Thread | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 8 2010, 06:21 PM (373,622 Views) | |
| Peakay | Apr 26 2015, 08:48 PM Post #9361 |
me IRL
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Gee, I don't know. Maybe because it's only purpose is to sexualize women (In most cases) while absolutely contributing nothing to the story. Especially in series where romance is included since for some weird reason women fall for a character just because they are a perfectly normal, nice human being with at least some decency (Mileage may vary depending on series) which makes some series too fake to be believable or enjoyable if you're not looking particularly forward to watching animated drawings of boobs or whatever. Maybe I'm reading too much into this but it kinda pisses me off. Neither Monotagari series or DxD are excused of this, neither are good enough series by their own to justify their copious amounts of fan service and most people should probably admit they're only watching these series exclusively to look at animated drawings of anatomically perfect women to satisfy whatever they want to satisfy because you're not fooling anyone. Oh yeah, Slash, this isn't particularly aimed at you. Just thought that this was a perfect chance to say stuff. |
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| Super Slash | Apr 26 2015, 08:52 PM Post #9362 |
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Fair enough. And yeah, I will freely admit that half the reason I watch DxD is for the fanservice. Unless you're gay I can't see anyone possibly saying otherwise. |
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| Saturos | Apr 26 2015, 08:59 PM Post #9363 |
heart-under-blade
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>a bit gross >not absolutely disgusting ok.jpg Fanservice absolutely needs an excuse, because otherwise it's just sexual material that has nothing to do with the plot, and only serves to address one half of the audience while closing the door on the other half. If "fanservice" is only "women being nude or felt up," then that's defining who your fanbase is. And if you're talking about what constitutes a good story, I think it's capacity to speak to something essentially human is the most important. Like, if it weren't for the fanservice I'd be definitely hounding Draco to constantly watch the Monogatari series because it's so [radio edit]ing good, but the stupidity of the fanservice potentially closes the door on that part of the audience and drags down the quality of the show as a whole. It has really no reason to be there or be presented as it is, since it's often just disassociated from any other kind of content. Unless it's to be "funny," but I don't think molesting elementary schoolers or middle schoolers is funny. That being said, I think there's a few scenes in Monogatari where I think the fanservice is okay -- namely, Senjou giving no [radio edit]s about walking around in her underwear at one point and Araragi's embarrassed/fascination therein, because it's establishing something about each of their mindsets and characters at the time. And Senjou fanservice basically drops off completely after the first two episodes for a plot reason. Nisemonogatari Like maybe you personally don't have a problem with fanservice, Slash, but it's important to recognize what makes a show good and how the content of the show is seen in different contexts or by different kinds of audiences. For example, how is the fanservice situated within the show, why is it being shown, and who is it intended for. To draw a comparison to something that has a lot more nudity, Game of Thrones has plenty of uncensored nipples and sex, but part of it is a function of realism in the setting. Secondly, it's at least made attempts to balance the fanservice with both genders, so it's not just all "male gaze" all the time. EDIT: I should clarify that fanservice doesn't need an excuse if the reason is just "fan service," but if we're to talk about the quality of the show, I think it definitely needs an excuse. |
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| Super Slash | Apr 26 2015, 09:05 PM Post #9364 |
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You both made good points so I've kinda changed my opinion. That doesn't mean I won't enjoy the fanservice but yeah, I agree that it should be integrated well and have a fair balance. I've noticed there is almost no fanservice for male characters in anime. As for the "disgusting" thing, Satty pls, don't create a problem where there isn't one =P It doesn't always have to be stated plainly. |
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| Peytral | Apr 26 2015, 09:06 PM Post #9365 |
peytral pls
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hmm... nah |
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| Peakay | Apr 26 2015, 09:10 PM Post #9366 |
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me IRL
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Another jarring thing about fanservice focused or harem anime is that most female characters are all basically following a set stereotype when it comes to personalities. There's always a tsundere, the quiet one, a lively one, the one that is supposed to be more mature than others, etc, etc. It's like none of these characters have any kind of "life" to them. Based on their copy pasted personality you can pretty much guess how the character interactions are going to go, which makes a lot of these series really boring to follow, even if the setting sounds kinda cool. ^^It's ok Peytral dude. You're already being judged by the anime police. |
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| Super Slash | Apr 26 2015, 09:11 PM Post #9367 |
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To be fair, this is a problem in a lot of anime in general (and JRPGs too, actually). |
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| Saturos | Apr 26 2015, 09:12 PM Post #9368 |
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heart-under-blade
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Idk PK, fanservice aside I think Monogatari series is one of my favourite shows, the symbolism, characters, and ideas presented are pretty on-point, and I'm always a sucker for the integration of folklore and myth into everyday life. And ofc, SHAFT is my favourite studio and they have a really nice text to work with. Bakemonogatari is probably the weakest in the series because it's tied heaviest to fanservice and two of the arcs kind of suck, but it just gets better from there. That being said, that's according to my particular tastes, which I recognize aren't objective. |
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| Peakay | Apr 26 2015, 09:17 PM Post #9369 |
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me IRL
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Okay, I think I might have been too harsh on the Monogatari series and I'll admit I watched pretty much all of the stuff except for Nisemonotagari because I was told it was pretty bad. Generally I also like the same stuff you like about the series, plus the effort they put into making the OST, which is pretty good I guess? Also Slash, I forgot to mention those JRPGs as well. It's a sad reality. I think I remember this one time they interviewed Hayao Miyazaki where he said that most people who write and/or animate manga or anime don't have too much real life experience, so they don't make believable characters or even have a general idea of how stuff works so they mostly rely on their characters being nice to initiate romance and also rely on the generic character archetypes, which is really dissapointing. |
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| Saturos | Apr 26 2015, 09:23 PM Post #9370 |
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heart-under-blade
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I think Monogatari series is pretty good about subverting or at least exploring the anime archetypes you described. Each of them gets deconstructed (and I mean that in the proper sense) into looking at their origins, and I think the psychological reasons why each character behaves likes that are followed through pretty clearly and with sufficient details. Furthermore, I think all the characters are flawed enough that their personality comes up into cases where they make mistakes, in ways that naturally emerge from who they are as characters. That's not to say that they're all internal conflicts, but rather that the external conflicts are symbolizations or projections of their internal conflicts. Nisemonogatari is pretty bad for fanservice sometimes, but I think it's also a really good and considered meditation on authenticity vs. fakeness, with a nice subtheme on the nature of truth. Yeah, OST is great. EDIT: Miyazaki is full of bs |
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| Peytral | Apr 26 2015, 09:25 PM Post #9371 |
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peytral pls
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Boyd can 100% vouch for me that that's not why I watch DxD. also MUH generalizations |
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| Peakay | Apr 26 2015, 09:30 PM Post #9372 |
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me IRL
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I am pretty sure there's like 7-8 recent anime where the setting is one where there's a single male guy in a school full of girls, the main heroine is a redheaded tsundere girl and then there's the princess archetype, the nerd archetype, the kind archetype and whatever kinds of archetypes to fill up the size of the potential harem. |
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| Saturos | Apr 26 2015, 09:30 PM Post #9373 |
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heart-under-blade
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I think generalizations, to some degree, are valid ways of talking about patterns in media. There will definitely be some exceptions to it, but it's useful to identify recurring things in a media, especially if they don't appear in say, media from another country or another timeframe. There are tropes/archetypes present in like any literature, art, or music, and discerning and comparing those patterns is what a good deal of criticism is about. Especially archetypal criticism, where it's an end in and of itself (TVTropes is basically this). Just because patterns/tropes/archetypes exist doesn't mean they're inherently bad, but when they are used, it's the deviations or nuances that determine whether it's above average or not. |
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| Peytral | Apr 26 2015, 09:32 PM Post #9374 |
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peytral pls
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I can barely think of any redheaded tsunderes in general. I'm not even trying to defend harem stuff. I don't even like the genre. I even think that most of what's airing this season is probably tripe. But I can almost guarantee that you're overgeneralizing. |
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| Silvy | Apr 26 2015, 09:37 PM Post #9375 |
idolswag4lyfe
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To an extent Monogatari series does, but comparing say, Hanekawa and Asia or Senjougahara and Rias, there's a clear difference in the amount that makes up each character. Spoilers for DxD and Bakemonogatari and yeah, everyone else has already stated stuff about fanservice, it does "bring down the quality of a show" when appealing to a general audience, but it doesn't mean something is automatically trash for having it.
Actually it's more like 3 volumes, the manga goes further than the first season, and yes , Issei is relateable in that way I suppose.
I remember this statement, silly generalization from an old man IMO. Sure there's a lot of meh anime out there, but the same could be said of any medium really. TBH, I've seen JRPGs and more recent anime provide more believable and well thought-out characters than the Miyazaki films I've seen so I personally don't take his comment very seriously. |
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| Gilgamesh | Apr 26 2015, 09:43 PM Post #9376 |
solbowz Aurarius
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My point was that you probably did way more Monogatari than DxD Though I won't argue that point much since all I know about the later volumes is hearsay, having not read them myself. But >using Asia as an example instead of the characters that are actually something more than 1 dimensional Would you like to beat up a strawman while you're at it too? |
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| Saturos | Apr 26 2015, 09:45 PM Post #9377 |
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heart-under-blade
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I'd assume it's because they have ostensiably similar personalities/tropes, judging from Silvy's spoiler tag, but I might be wrong. |
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| Peakay | Apr 26 2015, 09:45 PM Post #9378 |
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me IRL
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Well, the thing is, Peytral, was that I was complaining mostly about the Harem/Romance genre since it's USUALLY super generic when it comes to character personalities. Sure, there may be some where certain individuals have some kind of interesting quirk or what not but the fact that there's still a lot of problems within that genre. Also I provided my complaints with it so if you think I'm overgeneralizing then explain why is it so. |
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| Silvy | Apr 26 2015, 09:48 PM Post #9379 |
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idolswag4lyfe
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Yeah, it's true I've watched more of Monogatari series than DxD. I just used Asia as an example since she's of a similar archetype as Hanekawa, but Bakemonogatari works to build upon the latter as a character and subvert her "saint-like personality". I'll agree that the other characters are more interesting, but even then there isn't that much to them(from what I've seen/read atleast, I guess I'll take your word on it though, Boyd). |
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| Saturos | Apr 26 2015, 09:50 PM Post #9380 |
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heart-under-blade
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I'll take the romance angle, but is it trashier than romance produced in say, paperback books, or so on? Since we have a few sites dedicated specifically to tracking all the anime produced each season, we can keep up with most of what's being made in Japan relatively easily. Not so much for other stuff. Off the top of my head, Kara no Kyoukai is a yan/tsundere and Normal Guy love story done really well, and recently Golden Time is an almost completely romance show that did its characters extremely well and multifaceted, despite how they might be slotted into "tropes." |
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