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Alignments
Topic Started: Apr 22 2010, 09:09 AM (4,964 Views)
Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

The only thing stopping you is whoever is running the game. If they let you create a Lawful Neutral paladin*, go for it.

*stealing from Effex here. He made a pretty good one.
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Role
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Fulminous Witch
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Hmm... Well, a flexible paladin would be nice. One where you can have a fall from grace, or perhaps a moment where you realize that your chaotic evil ways have quite the karmic bite and start going on an Earl-type quest. You lose your power if you stray from the alignment your diety expects you to be, but that's why you seek the order of a different deity.

I mean, it'd be interesting to play as a repentant Paladin of Slaughter, you know? You may not be able to perfectly follow the law, given your own ways, but the alignment shift from Chaotic Evil to Neutral Good could be pretty interesting to RP. Anyone know how to properly write up the rules for such a flexible class?
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Essentially, I'd say that "If you fall from one type of paladinhood, you can get an atonement spell to return to your previous deity/ideal, or you can switch to another that more closely matches your current alignment" sums it up.
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Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

In my RPs, I tend to have Paladins just be someone who is a warrior for the God they follow. As such, they tend to have different abilities and rules based on which god they follow. Not just by alignment.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Oh, and I forgot to mention, their smite and lay on hands abilities would would change descriptors accordingly--evil paladins would get "smite good" and would harm via negative energy with LoH, while neutral paladins would... I dunno, actually. Would they just choose one like clerics?
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Fulminous Witch
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Jarnakel Magnus
Apr 22 2010, 03:29 PM
In my RPs, I tend to have Paladins just be someone who is a warrior for the God they follow. As such, they tend to have different abilities and rules based on which god they follow. Not just by alignment.
That's EXACTLY what they should be! I can understand aligment restrictions for some things, or perhaps for a field (if you serve a Good God, you have to be Good. If it's a god of Law, you need to be Lawful, etc...), but specifically lawful good? Come on! The world doesn't work that way. Lawful Good is oft predictable, and you can't enforce the law if you're not willing to at least think outside it sometimes. Hell, why do you think the show White Collar is so popular? A man with a criminal history has a lot of insight into inner workings of criminals and knows how they think. If he repents and decides to become a paladin, he works best if he's Neutral Good.
The Phantom Squee
Apr 22 2010, 03:33 PM
Oh, and I forgot to mention, their smite and lay on hands abilities would would change descriptors accordingly--evil paladins would get "smite good" and would harm via negative energy with LoH, while neutral paladins would... I dunno, actually. Would they just choose one like clerics?
Smite Anarchic
Smite Axiomatic

True Neutral not allowed. Or they get Smite Extremist or something... Only effects the four corners of the layout, with appropriate energies.

I can see that easily.
Edited by Role, Apr 22 2010, 03:35 PM.
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Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

Yeah, Effex's LN Paladin had a "Smite Chaos" to replace "Smite Evil"
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Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

Yeah. Another reason I don't like D&D. When they finally make Paladin variants, its half-assed. Although I've heard that 4th Ed is a lot better than the others. I may look into it if I get the time...

EDIT: and in response to Role thinking you're bound by the D&D rulebook. I seem to recall it saying that it's merely a guideline, and the DM gets the final say. I know WoD encourages you to make your own rules as required, as they know they can't plan for everything.
Edited by Jarnakel Magnus, Apr 22 2010, 03:39 PM.
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Role
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Fulminous Witch
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Oh, right...

It'd be Smite Chaos dealing Axiomatic Energy damage
and Smite Law dealing Anarchic Energy damage

wouldn't it?

Also, to fix the 4 targets vs 3 targets issue, Smite Extremist would do 75% of the damage.

If Smite Evil does 400 damage to three alignments, Smite Extremist would do 300 damage to four alignments.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Role
Apr 22 2010, 03:38 PM
Oh, right...

It'd be Smite Chaos dealing Axiomatic Energy damage
and Smite Law dealing Anarchic Energy damage

wouldn't it?

Also, to fix the 4 targets vs 3 targets issue, Smite Extremist would do 75% of the damage.

If Smite Evil does 400 damage to three alignments, Smite Extremist would do 300 damage to four alignments.
I'm pretty sure you've still only got three targets, unless I missed something.
Jarnakel Magnus
Apr 22 2010, 03:38 PM
Yeah. Another reason I don't like D&D. When they finally make Paladin variants, its half-assed. Although I've heard that 4th Ed is a lot better than the others. I may look into it if I get the time...

EDIT: and in response to Role thinking you're bound by the D&D rulebook. I seem to recall it saying that it's merely a guideline, and the DM gets the final say. I know WoD encourages you to make your own rules as required, as they know they can't plan for everything.
Well, whether 4e is better or not is a matter of opinion. I personally don't like it, but it is certainly a great deal better-balanced. Gwydd's the 4e expert, he'd be able to tell you more.
Edited by The Phantom Squee, Apr 22 2010, 03:45 PM.
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Role
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Fulminous Witch
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Smite Extremist would hit Lawful Good, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Good, and Chaotic Evil. Basically, anything that isn't neutral. That's 4 targets there, as opposed to the 3 you get with the others.
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Saelnaha
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Let's just wait and see what happens.

Role was talking about a True Neutral paladin smiting the four extreme alignments (LG, CG, LE, and CE), as opposed to any other paladin smiting the three opposed alignments to their own.

Edit: Ninja'd by Role herself.
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Oh, okay, I see what you mean. You were referring to the true neutral version only. I was under the impression you were talking about Smite Law or Smite Chaos.

Edit: And ninja'd in turn by you.
Edited by The Phantom Squee, Apr 22 2010, 03:48 PM.
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Role
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Fulminous Witch
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The Phantom Squee
Apr 22 2010, 03:48 PM
Oh, okay, I see what you mean. You were referring to the true neutral version only. I was under the impression you were talking about Smite Law or Smite Chaos.

Edit: And ninja'd in turn by you.
Oh, no, they'd be law and chaos versions of Smite Good and Evil plain and simple. It's just that you can't do that with True Neutral, it gets a bit tricky.

As for those extremist ones, I think they should have a right to choose either Smite Good/Evil OR Smite Law/Chaos. Basically, they get both, only half as many as Neutral Good/Evil or Chaotic/Lawful Neutral in the individual category.

Edit: To explain better:

For example, when a NG would have 10 Smite Evil, a LG might have 5 Smite Evil and 5 Smite Chaos instead.
Edited by Role, Apr 22 2010, 03:52 PM.
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Effex
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The King in Tartan
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First off, I made sure not to half-ass my variant. It's actually a variant in that it's significantly different from the regular Paladin but still holds the same general idea.

Second, I refuse to reveal my own alignment.
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Role
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Fulminous Witch
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Basically that's what we're trying to do. Make a paladin that doesn't suck. Single alignment restrictions are just ridiculous, even if it's Chaotic Good instead of Lawful Good, the fact that alignment change = you suck pisses me off. At least let me enjoy either the whole Lawful or Good spread, depending on my deity's preference.
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Jarnakel Magnus
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Nothing to siege here, move along.

Role
Apr 22 2010, 03:57 PM
Basically that's what we're trying to do. Make a paladin that doesn't suck.
I already have, tyvm. But I'd be more than willing to make, or listen to, suggestions. After all, you can always make it better.
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Fulminous Witch
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The way I figure it, you should be restricted to whatever smite-type you elect to get. If as an LG Paladin, you opt for Smite Chaos, you can become an LN Paladin no problem, but if you become a NG Paladin, your Deity ain't gonna be too keen on you not practicing what you preach, and thus BAM, your powers go bye bye until you correct your ways. If you choose to get both, then yes, you have to be Lawful Good. If not, you've got a few more options open to you.

As for TN Paladins, although you don't lose your powers if you become, say, Neutral Evil for example, I still say the power of your Smite Extremist and other related abilities should be halved due to you straying too close to an extremist alignment. Or at least, halved on the alignment type you strayed over to. If you become, say, CE from TN, then yeah, good bye powers.
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Effex
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The King in Tartan
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I don't know, I've never had much trouble keeping my alignment consistent. Especially since it's in the rules that you have to have a major change in your life to change your fundamental alignment.

It's more 'breaking the Vow of the Paladin' which is the tough part - in Vanilla DnD that's committing a grossly non-good, or to a lesser extend non-lawful act, but it doesn't necessarily have to be.
For one thing, Paladins aren't necessarily religious warriors in DnD and turning them into one just makes you a cleric with nicer BaB and less spells and a fancy mount. They're 'Righteous' warriors. Their entire thing is being good. Or, if a variant, being evil, or in the case of mine, being lawful.
You want to play a tough Paladin? My variant, is a tough Paladin to play. They can basically commit either good or evil acts so long as they're lawful but break it and you're [radio edit]ed.
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Fulminous Witch
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How I play, you usually start True Neutral unless there's a background reason, such as you being a thief, berserker, or perhaps a devout religious person. The choices you make are what gradually cause you to become one alignment over another. If I tend to follow the laws and the order of my king without question, I'll gradually become lawful. If I don't like the king's orders because it puts people in harm's way, I may become more chaotic, with a wee-bit of good as well.

It's the decisions we make in life and the reasons behind them that change our alignment. It's the motivations. Major choices can make major shifts, yes, but minor choices do make minor shifts. And those build up over time.

So most of them start neutral, and eventually wind up with a final alignment depending on how I decide to play them in the end. They aren't given a declared alignment - they end up with one.
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