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| Incest Anime? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Apr 22 2009, 08:42 PM (3,820 Views) | |
| The Phantom Squee | Jun 1 2016, 05:53 PM Post #41 |
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"
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The problem with that is that once you open the proverbial door, you can't close it again. A second-generation person says "Hey, they were allowed to do it, so barring me from it is discrimination," and they're right, so unless you want to enact some kind of laws making it arbitrarily okay for one group but not others, you're SOL. |
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| Saturos | Jun 1 2016, 05:58 PM Post #42 |
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heart-under-blade
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I'd rather see some sources then people just stating what they believe, personally. |
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| Kris, Awooer of Worlds | Jun 1 2016, 06:01 PM Post #43 |
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Awoo!
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clearly we must ask betty |
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| Aevis Martius Ravi | Jun 1 2016, 06:26 PM Post #44 |
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Origins
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Family on my mother's side is tied to royalty in england. Yep. >.> *barfs* My opinion on incest is that it is fine for fictional characters in porn or w/e fantasy and even in roleplay. Real life = yuck. |
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| Saturos | Jun 1 2016, 07:22 PM Post #45 |
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heart-under-blade
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Fine, I went Googling myself Incestuous Unions "(Usually First-Degree Relatives) Risk above general population: 31.4% for death and severe defect (4 data sets) 6.8% to 11.2% for significant birth defects (extrapolated from first-cousin data)" Source. I found another article from Psychology Today that claimed a straight-up 40-60% risk for birth defects or death, not even above the general population, but it seemed a bit less reliable since it was situated within an abortion context. Also it was in a blog section with no source links. If you're curious, here it is, but grain of salt and etc. |
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| Gwydd | Jun 1 2016, 08:08 PM Post #46 |
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Eternity Awaits You and Me
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Incest is an interesting legal topic. It should be mentioned here that so-called "Kissing Cousins" isn't Incest in Japan – it's actually quite legal, and while uncommon, not a rare occurrence. Other countries like France have no legal restrictions on who you marry or have kids with, though statutory rape is still a catch-all that covers a lot of the dangers that are posed with most cases of incest. In the US, many states have allowed 1st-cousin-marriage. Incest laws in the US, as with many other countries, serve a dual purpose: (1) to reinforce the incest-taboo and avoid higher chances of genetic defects in offspring; and more importantly, (2) to provide a more easily-proven and more forceful sentence upon criminals who committed of statutory rape. The benefits to victims in the streamlined process that going for an incest offense should not be understated. Rape cases are notoriously hard to get a conviction on, and anything that helps the victims should not be thrown aside lightly. But we're also talking about a civil liberty here that is being limited due to social stigma: that two consensual adults are forbidden from choosing to live their lives the way they want to live them, without causing harm to anyone else. In no other situation do we ban parents from having children if they have a high chance of genetic defects – that would be Eugenics, the sort of culling processes favoured by the Nazis in 1930s and 40s Germany and unfortunately still carried out unofficially in many countries around the world. We do not say to a woman with down-syndrome that she cannot and must not get pregnant and give birth, despite the 50% chance of passing on her gene for down-syndrome. Doctors can highly advise against having children to parents who are carriers or victims of serious genetic disorders, and yet the couples are still legally allowed to follow through. This is not the case for couples that have been branded as incestuous and thus forbidden. This is one of the remaining major civil rights issues in the US, one that doesn't have a strong following to push it through due to the tiny minority of people who have entered a consensual incestuous relationship. But if we can't stand up for the rights of the few, than we're no better than a mob-mentality. Tyranny of the Majority is a real danger in democratic societies, and it is a major reason we have checks and balances and a tripartite government. Conservatives scaretactics have long said "allow gay marriage and you'll soon have people marrying their siblings!" but quite honestly, that's a slippery slope we should be skiing down if we seriously care about the civil liberties of all our nation's residents. That said, should we remove incest from being a criminal offense, then we also need stronger tools for convicting rapists and serving justice for the victims of crimes such as statutory rape. We need these tools in general anyway, but it hurts to remove any tool we have, given how hard it is to add tools to the legal repertoire. As an aside, I'm surprised no one has mentioned Yosuga no Sora yet – one of the routes of that visual novel/anime is twincest (thus wincest). It's a weird anime, since its structured like a visual novel – while the first few episodes are universal, you then have an episode that sets up a two separate series of episodes, one for each female character's ending. And then you have the same thing, but for the other two possible endings. So the series is actually four shows that split off and share early episodes with one another. You're probably better off watching the entire series four times through from the beginning, though by then you might be feeling like you just made it through Endless Eight or something, given the intertwining plots and repeated events. Also, for those who like stories about cousin relationships, Denpa Onna to Seishun Otoko is an excellent series full of weird characters who are trying to live their lives. Very slice of life, far superior to the series I mentioned above (though not strangely formatted like it). And yes, the key girl is the main character's cousin. This was a light novel too, and I'm pretty sure you can still read it on the light novel fan-translation website. Plus, it's got a manga. The anime ends far ahead of where the translations of the manga and light novel are currently at, though I'm pretty sure the light novel continues on farther beyond the end of the anime (which I think got a gecko-ending episode at the end). |
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| Saturos | Jun 1 2016, 08:20 PM Post #47 |
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heart-under-blade
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A woman with Down syndrome can defs have children, but that's an unavoidable fact of her circumstance, and the risk is present no matter what. With incest, they could literally choose any other partner and be fine, but if they're having children willingly endangering their child, then... yeah. I think saying "preventing avoidable birth defects and death" in children is equal to Nazi eugenics is a bit misleading. A better analogy might be "not drinking alcohol or smoking while pregnant." |
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| Gnarlymaple | Jun 1 2016, 08:23 PM Post #48 |
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What if we remove children from the equation? |
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| Saturos | Jun 1 2016, 08:33 PM Post #49 |
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heart-under-blade
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Then of course I have no objection, as long as it's consensual.I think the norm is to have a natural aversion to incest anyway (Westermarck Effect, etc), so we tend to have genetic predispositions against it. But if it happens, then sure, whatevers. The risk of children definitely shouldn't be discounted, though, but it's difficult to think of how that particularly would be enforced. Do you make things even worse for the child by fining or charging the parents after the fact, or count on that being enough of a deterrant? Do you mandate the use of contraceptives of some sort? |
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| Gwydd | Jun 1 2016, 10:40 PM Post #50 |
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Eternity Awaits You and Me
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I think that's a path that's ultimately untenable. You allow it partway, and people will start demanding the full-flood gates because you're treating people unequally. This is a quandary we're going to have to face irrespective of incest as our science on genetic engineer increases to the point that we have the potential to stave off various genetic diseases. |
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| Skylin | Jun 1 2016, 11:37 PM Post #51 |
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2 Lewd 4 U
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I have found other sources that quote completely different stats, Satty. I don't feel like prolonging this though because I know people feel gross about incest. Though your source did support what I said about cousins. "I keep finding varying sources on first gen with your closest relatives but once you get to cousins and out there's a danger but not a drastically higher danger (though there are contested sources for this too). I also worded what I posted horribly. I should not paint maps and post about incest at the same time. Cousins though there's a few percent increase in chances of defects. 2-3% chance for non-incest couples and 4-6% chance of cousin incest. Morally though I can see the "doors being opened" in a way and then you get 2nd gen incest and so on. I still see nothing morally reprehensible about non-procreative incest though." I just realized the part in quotes I meant to post hours ago but forgot to hit submit so that answers my question of where my post went and why people acted like I enver said it. |
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| Saturos | Jun 2 2016, 02:07 AM Post #52 |
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heart-under-blade
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First cousins in moderation is quite a different matter from first-relations. Like I said, 12.5% to 50% genetical similarity. Still not a really good idea to do multiple times and that still is a risk, but it's something that happens in the world still. Hypotheticals about future genetic science aren't exactly relevant to the issue at hand, though we can talk about it later. I'm all for treating people unequally if it means preventing birth defects or death in children. There are things more important than the freedom to have children with your siblings. I don't think anyone has yet said that non-procreative incest is morally wrong, Sky. It's not a cultural norm anywheres, basically, but... |
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| Gwydd | Jun 2 2016, 08:13 AM Post #53 |
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Eternity Awaits You and Me
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Don't get me wrong – it's not like I want to engage in such things by any means. I also think the genetic risks are very bad. But we need to decide if we want to allow people to plan their own families or if government should have say on your children. Most Americans would agree that China's government-enforced population-control has created a lot of terrible problems: dangerous last-minute abortions, daughters hidden under the stairs without official citizen status or birth certificates, murder of new-born babies. On the other hand, China's 1-child policy was incredibly effective at curtailing the rush of overpopulation. I think we're weighing two very big dangers here: our personal freedoms to plan our own families, and the risks of overpopulation created by that freedom. If you're going to allow incestuous relationships, but meddle in their family planning, then unless you've decided as a whole that government has say in your choices about children, you've created a class of people that does not have equal rights to other classes. Again, I'm not arguing for children born of incest – I think there's a huge genetic danger there that, as we saw even with distant cousin marriages, over generations can lead to terrible diseases (and stupid decisions in European politics for the sake of national mergers and acquisitions). What I'm saying is that we need to treat everyone equally – either everyone is affected by government influence on their family planning, or no one is. Honestly, if we could prevent the problems that China had with it's 1-child policy, this would would vastly benefit from population control measures. |
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