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"Melee is perfect" = "Brawl is so flawed; hacking it to play like Melee is NEEDED"
Topic Started: May 11 2008, 07:42 PM (1,206 Views)
The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

I do, items and terrain are some of the biggest parts of my strategy. *Nodnod*

And the Cresselia thing is just personal preference. >< I don't have a problem adapting to flipped controls either. It's a lefty thing.
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Erik the Appreciator
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Master of Trivia, Grand Patron of 5 Gens

Hinoa
May 11 2008, 07:06 PM
Lin
May 11 2008, 09:03 PM
And Hinoa, please locate me to where you ranted about pro players.

Multiple times in this thread and just now here (in which I swore a lot). I still kinda want to fit the more explicit version of "go choke on a stick and die" in there, but whatever.

You know, Hin, you made my evening writing that open letter (since it came to existence because I brought it to your attention). I think that's even more cathartic than my rant template. =D


EDIT: Hah, what do you know? In Television Tropes & Idioms' article "They Changed It Now It Sucks" the Brawl being hacked to become Melee issue's included as one of the examples of the ridiculousity:

"The Super Smash Bros series deserves a special mention with Wavedashing, which, no matter what anyone tells you, was a glitch. When removed from Brawl some players naturally complained.
It gets worse. People are so angry at the changes made in Brawl that they're trying to hack into the game and, essentially, turn it back into Melee."
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ShinyGirafarig
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Giraffes are adorable.

Erik read this trope too. Also gives them a mention.


Now I can't stop comparing the competitive scene of SSB to that of Yu-Gi-Oh .

The abridged series makes fun of card games are a serious business in Yugioh. It's funny to think that you can replace "Children's Card Games" with "Children's Mascot Fighting Game" and you perfectly described how ridiculous it is to make the Smash series as a Serious Business.
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Chrono Ivan
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He who strikes like lightning

IIRC the devteam said WD was a valid trick you could do though, so that's false. They called it 'super dash' or something, I'll try to find it.

I will say that if they want to make brawl more competitive, making it as meleeish as possible is a stupid way to go about it. They're ignoring the vast majority of "non competitive" things in the game like items or stage hazards. Why not make item probablitys such that they spawn in a fixed order in one spot? Or hack in the sticker properties so everyone can start with a star rod (jawesome item) or hrb or whatever? Why not make the F-zero cars hit with less force? Make the Norfair lava flows come in a fixed pattern over time?

The fact of the matter is that instead of trying to tweak 'nearly there' competitive possibilities in Brawl that would open up whole vistas of new metagame, they'd rather turn back the clock to Melee standards and screw around with the physics to make SSBB faster and more offensive minded, which would render certain characters (read: MK) brokenly good because they, yes, are incapeable of seeing brawl as having any sort of competitive potential on its own.

I can hazard GSAlex refrains for this sort of thing for fear of coming off as elitist (which, if you're actually elite at something, like a doctor or what have you, you should be proud of) but I'd like to ask him, with his pro hardcore mentality whether or not I'm hitting the nail on the head here or missing board entirely.
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GSAlex
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The Punny King

Hiya. Important stuff in bold. TL;DR in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1...

You seem to have a good understanding of my viewpoint, Chrono.

Er... I feel I should preface the rest of this post, though I think I'm being nice. Hinoa, Erik, KP, I have the utmost respect for you all. I'm not going to come into your homes and tell you how to have fun. That's stupid. "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and all that jazz. You all have your own ways of playing the game, and it would be both stupid and ignorant of me to tell you how to enjoy your game.

That said...

Let me enjoy the game as I want to enjoy it. I do not enjoy it when my friend grabs a Starman and proceeds to invincibly own me in the face. More than that, I hate it when I get a Starman. I gain no pleasure from it because the randomness gips me out of the experience, or so I feel.

There are people like me. We have a community. We call it the "Competitive Smash Community." We play without items on specific stages adding rules and rules.

These additional circumstances, as best I understand, make the game un-fun for you in the same way that removing these circumstances makes it un-fun for me. Just different ways of playing. No one is better or worse.

Now, it would appear to me that, when making Brawl, the creators appealed to the larger market, as well they should have. Brawl lost wavedashing and l-canceling and all that. Fine. That's A-okay with me. If Brawl will ever have the same potential I felt in Melee, I'll be playing to win in that game, too.

I believe that there is a potential for a metagame in Brawl. I think that the way to find this in such a new game is to experiment and explore. Leave bias from Melee behind. Explore items, stages, anything. In a few years, we'll have something. If the developers wanted a Melee 2.0, they'd have made one. Hacking the Brawl we "wanted" may appeal to some, and that's super for them, but that's not how I'll play. The serious business stuff for big tournaments will develop on its own as the game gets older, just like it has for Melee and Street Fighter and everything else.

Direct response to title: Melee was fun. Brawl is different than how I enjoyed my Melee, but I acknowledge that this does not mean that it sucks or that there is no hope for it.

Note: This is written with the exception of tripping. I will never, for the life of me, figure out why that was put in this game.
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LSunnyC
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The Fallen Duchess

I haven't read more than about half the front page and then Alex's post here, but I've got something to say about hacking a game to make it like Melee:

Why not just... play... Melee...? o_o

I mean, it's reversed but I'm not fond of GS1, what do I do about it? Do I emulate Felix in Isaac's place? No. I... play GS2... o_o; Seems simple to me.

Unless they're just doing it 'cause Melee can't Wifi. D: Silly people...
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Erik the Appreciator
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Master of Trivia, Grand Patron of 5 Gens

Now's a good time for me to blow a lot of people's minds away with a revelation I've been saving up. ;)

Not once in my posts here have I ever actually said I dislike/disagree with the concept of hacking Brawl to play more like Melee. :o (I've never said I agreed with it either, for that matter.) I'm actually totally neutral towards the concept of other people wanting to play a Melee-ized Brawl, since how they want to do it doesn't matter to me one bit. =)

And I actually only started noticing the tripping detail in Brawl two weeks back. XD
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The Phantom Squee
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Sound the horn and call the cry: "How many of them can we make die?"

Sunny: Melee doesn't have Ike, Pit, Metaknight, etc. That's the biggest difference for me, at any rate. A lot of the new Brawl stages... kinda suck. >_O
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Chrono Ivan
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He who strikes like lightning

I still say hacking it is chasing a dream. Any brawl hack will never be as 'melee' as melee itself is, probably because they won't get nearly far enough. You'll just end up with Trip Free brawl (good) with physics that nerf everyone with high speed recovery moves (Wolf, Ike, D3, Sheik, Wegee) and realitvely short range recovery moves (Falcon, Gannon) dropping them down competitively. (bad)

No fighting game is balanced, but doing this just makes it MORE unbalanced which is stupid.

On balance I'd ask to fix the Lu/ness trick, because having Marth as a counterpick who's already top tier on his own is just nasty. (The Lu/ness trick is basically an infinite grab combo that racks up as much damage as you want because Ness and Lucass have severa more downtime frames from 'getting free' of a hold and landing back in control than other characters, so Marth and Ike, I guess, can just grab them right out of the air again and keep grab hitting them for MASSIVE DAMAGE)

And I know high gravity "fixes" it, shut up.

Also GSAlex good, you take after Sirlin. I was worried you were more like Kirkegaard. :/
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